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Emissions of banned, ozone-depleting chemical CFC-11 have climbed 25% since 2012

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Emissions of banned, ozone-depleting chemical CFC-11 have climbed 25% since 2012

#21

Post by jessaustin »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #6

Can someone summarize how CFCs achieve the result of depleting the ozone layer? When I was a kid someone pointed out that CFCs were quite heavy and it was not possible to make it up to the ozone layer. Also, my kid logic considered the science experiment where the teacher showed us a basketball with a light shining through a peg-board onto. At the polls the circles were elongated, thus demonstrating how less light (t…

To address just the light-through-the-pegboard objection, recall that the earth's axis is tilted with respect to the ecliptic. This results in the polar regions receiving long days of sunlight during the summer: at the pole itself the sun doesn't set for six months. It's possible that even less-direct sunlight would have a more pronounced effect over such a long duration.

Re: Emissions of banned, ozone-depleting chemical CFC-11 have climbed 25% since 2012

#23

Post by Already__Taken »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #6

Can someone summarize how CFCs achieve the result of depleting the ozone layer? When I was a kid someone pointed out that CFCs were quite heavy and it was not possible to make it up to the ozone layer. Also, my kid logic considered the science experiment where the teacher showed us a basketball with a light shining through a peg-board onto. At the polls the circles were elongated, thus demonstrating how less light (t…

What's wrong with literally the first google result for cfc ozone reaction. http://www.theozonehole.com/ozonedestruction.htm

Re: Emissions of banned, ozone-depleting chemical CFC-11 have climbed 25% since 2012

#24

Post by RobertRoberts »

desdiv wrote: post #17
RobertRoberts wrote: post #6

Can someone summarize how CFCs achieve the result of depleting the ozone layer? When I was a kid someone pointed out that CFCs were quite heavy and it was not possible to make it up to the ozone layer. Also, my kid logic considered the science experiment where the teacher showed us a basketball with a light shining through a peg-board onto. At the polls the circles were elongated, thus demonstrating how less light (t…

>Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) are heavier than air, so how do scientists suppose that these chemicals reach the altitude of the ozone layer to adversely affect it? >Although the CFC molecules are indeed several times heavier than air, thousands of measurements have been made from balloons, aircraft and satellites demonstrating that the CFCs are actually present in the stratosphere. The atmosphere is not stagnant. Winds…

That article says this: "Because CFCs are so long-lived in the lower atmosphere, there is ample time and opportunity for them to become well mixed and eventually to reach the stratosphere."

They all go to one place? Consider the plastic patch in the Pacific, even there, there are currents that move everything there. I've never heard of currents in the air that push everything to the south pole, and then straight up. In fact, I'd tend to believe the air goes up at the equator, and down at the poles (in general).

Re: Emissions of banned, ozone-depleting chemical CFC-11 have climbed 25% since 2012

#25

Post by rhodrid »

titzer wrote: post #18
DiabloD3 wrote: post #8

Ozone production is tied to solar activity disproportionately, and the 11 year cycle between the solar maximum and the solar minimum effect ozone measurements. We are currently at solar minimum, and we are also possibly headed into a grand solar minimum (an extended period of low solar activity). Zaelke also does not seem to have published a paper on his findings, and all of his quotes in this article are largely pol…

> how it effected climate activity during a time of natural low ozone production. The article I read didn't discuss anything about the effect on the climate. AFAIK the primary concern isn't about direct effects on climate, but the loss of the ozone layer lets through vastly more UV light, which has a sterilizing effect on the oceans and is extremely harmful to human health. The fact that this did not have a big econo…

Crops don't like it much either. Same with trees.

Re: Emissions of banned, ozone-depleting chemical CFC-11 have climbed 25% since 2012

#26

Post by mhneu »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #6

Can someone summarize how CFCs achieve the result of depleting the ozone layer? When I was a kid someone pointed out that CFCs were quite heavy and it was not possible to make it up to the ozone layer. Also, my kid logic considered the science experiment where the teacher showed us a basketball with a light shining through a peg-board onto. At the polls the circles were elongated, thus demonstrating how less light (t…

Remember as you read these arguments that the wide consensus of scientists is that CFCs cause ozone breakdown.

And the only reason there is any disagreement at all is because billionaires and corporations pay for disinformation. They amplify the tiny number of scientists that disagree, and fund conferences and media to push this false story. Why? Because oil and gas companies make money on climate inaction. So they spend marketing money to sow doubt. There’s no significant organic climate doubt- the push comes from oil and gas funding.

Watching “Merchants of Doubt” is a good start because oil and gas company disinformation on climate follows the same playbook as tobacco and asbestos companies used.

Re: Emissions of banned, ozone-depleting chemical CFC-11 have climbed 25% since 2012

#27

Post by kissickas »

rdtsc wrote: post #2

> also because alternatives exist, making it hard to imagine what the market for CFC-11 today would be. Well I've heard of someone who was stockpiling and was planning to sell banned Freon. That was years ago. There is a black market for it because equipment that uses it doesn't simply work on newer approved stuff. If I randomly heard about it, chances are there are more insantces of it. And if there is demand someon…

Similarly, I know of someone who was manufacturing a CFC in the US before it was banned. He sold huge stockpiles to South American buyers in advance of the treaty taking effect, making more money then than before simply due to selling such a large volume in such a short time.

It doesn't matter if alternatives exist now; someone made that huge purchase back then, they're not going to destroy all of their stock unless they're caught or afraid of being caught.

Re: Emissions of banned, ozone-depleting chemical CFC-11 have climbed 25% since 2012

#28

Post by RobertRoberts »

Already__Taken wrote: post #23
RobertRoberts wrote: post #6

Can someone summarize how CFCs achieve the result of depleting the ozone layer? When I was a kid someone pointed out that CFCs were quite heavy and it was not possible to make it up to the ozone layer. Also, my kid logic considered the science experiment where the teacher showed us a basketball with a light shining through a peg-board onto. At the polls the circles were elongated, thus demonstrating how less light (t…

What's wrong with literally the first google result for cfc ozone reaction. http://www.theozonehole.com/ozonedestruction.htm

"Computer models have been used to examine the combined effect of the large group of known reactions that occur in the stratosphere."

So, no experiments demonstrating this actually happens, only computer models?

Re: Emissions of banned, ozone-depleting chemical CFC-11 have climbed 25% since 2012

#29

Post by mhneu »

amirmc wrote: post #20
RobertRoberts wrote: post #6

Can someone summarize how CFCs achieve the result of depleting the ozone layer? When I was a kid someone pointed out that CFCs were quite heavy and it was not possible to make it up to the ozone layer. Also, my kid logic considered the science experiment where the teacher showed us a basketball with a light shining through a peg-board onto. At the polls the circles were elongated, thus demonstrating how less light (t…

You seem to be trying to refute models of complicated atmospheric processes based on (necessarily) over-simplified high school physics. I’m sure there much more reading material out there than just the two Wikipedia pages you linked. Try the following for some more: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion

As you provide links remember that a prominent argument used by climate-change-deniers is this heavier than air fake argument. https://www.ourcivilisation.com/ozone/king.htm

Some history here https://books.google.com/books?id=Va-BAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&lpg=P...

But this form of the denial disinformation is pretty old and perhaps surprising it’s being discussed today.

Ed: but aha, it looks like the Christian Coalition site has been sowing CFC doubt much more recently: http://www.cc.org/blog/suspected_ozone_loss_may_never_have_i...

Re: Emissions of banned, ozone-depleting chemical CFC-11 have climbed 25% since 2012

#30

Post by primitivesuave »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #6

Can someone summarize how CFCs achieve the result of depleting the ozone layer? When I was a kid someone pointed out that CFCs were quite heavy and it was not possible to make it up to the ozone layer. Also, my kid logic considered the science experiment where the teacher showed us a basketball with a light shining through a peg-board onto. At the polls the circles were elongated, thus demonstrating how less light (t…

No, nothing is amiss. There are literally decades of scientific research around this topic, and far more thought went into its conclusions than a 7th grade science experiment.
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