I Got Catfished by a Candidate • Hacker News Board

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#311

Post by lovich » Wed, May 16, 2018, 4:09 AM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #304

lovich wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your definition of lieing allows for an unlimited amount of misdirection based on a literal interpretation of lieing. If you are a manager, you heard the CEO say they are going to lay off the bottom 20% of the engineers next month, you know you rated employee A as your worst employee during evaluations, and you then assign Employee A to a new project that's estimated to be 8 months of work, you have not lied…

You're constructing a fantasy reality for yourself where words mean whatever you want them to, and where I personally did a series of things that you literally just made up. The real process for how something like happened is that the management spend some time assessing the viability of a project > decide it's not worth continuing > make a plan for how to shut it down > inform staff and help them find new roles insi…

None of my arguments were strawmen. The three examples I gave were things I personally saw go down at companies I worked at by people with your same viewpoint. I have not worked with anyone who stated that they never lied who did not act like they were a genie from a fairy tale and anything but a lawyer drafted contract to them was means to manipulate someone as far as possible.

I apologize if it came off as me saying that you had done these things. I am on the east coast and not in a tech hub for most of my career, and many of the stories coming from the west coast tech hubs sound like utopian fantasies compared to the way I have seen employers treat employees here.

At this point we are looking at the same painting but you see blue and I see red, so perhaps it is best to end the discussion

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#312

Post by learc83 » Wed, May 16, 2018, 4:12 AM UTC

lovich wrote: post #200

ironjunkie wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In any other profession I would agree with the complete nonsense going on with hiring, but at least in IT (and at least in the bay area), there is such a demand for engineers that I don't see this going on too much except at some of the big shops (Google, Facebook etc) which are frontended with incompetent recruiters that only look at keywords.

Outside of Silicon Valley, there are many ridiculous hiring practices. On the east coast I have applied to multiple companies where I knew enough of the employees to get dinner with the team after. When we talked about hiring policies and practices all but one of those dinners ended up with a fight between the coworkers that fell into two teams of whether they should fail candidates over not wearing a suit because it…

I think this is a product of the relative immaturity of our industry, and the problems exist inside SV companies as well as outside.

We tend to cargo cult interview practices from whomever the big player of the week is (IBM, then MS, now Google).

Then we justify these awful hiring practices by convincing ourselves that programming is so hard that of course we need to put candidates through 6 rounds of interviews and treat people with 20 years of experience like new grads.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#313

Post by AmericanChopper » Wed, May 16, 2018, 4:13 AM UTC

anonnel wrote: post #303

AmericanChopper wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really a reductio ad absurdum. But if you think your boss is dishonest with you, then go find a new boss. Dishonesty instantly destroys trust, and unless it’s about something entirely trivial, it’s almost impossible to restore it. A trustless workplace cannot be functional. You can point to examples of workplaces that are dysfunctional if you like, but it’s something I refuse to contribute to, or even tolerat…

> If you think your boss is lying to you, go find a new boss. That statement seems completely disconnected from reality. Not the part about going to find something better, because that is (usually) possible. But managers regularly and transparently lie. It sounds like you’re a boss, so I think you haven’t had to experience this for too long and have probably forgotten it. Also, try not to be so gung ho on declaring w…

>managers regularly and transparently lie

There are those that do, and they have to handle the consequences of that.

>It sounds like you’re a boss, so I think you haven’t had to experience this for too long and have probably forgotten it.

I am, but I also have one myself. I am also fully aware of how dysfunctional organisations can become when they don't value honesty and integrity.

>Also, try not to be so gung ho on declaring who you fire and how little remorse you have

I don't have any issues with discussing my values with others. Especially in an anonymous online forum. Reading some of the responses I've gotten in this thread, it seems honesty and integrity are perhaps not widely valued here. Maybe I've changed somebody's perspective on that, maybe that's a good thing.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#314

Post by AmericanChopper » Wed, May 16, 2018, 4:17 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #295

AmericanChopper wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not really what I’m saying at all. Every lie you tell jeopardises the trust you have amongst others. You might not get caught, and if you do, you may not damage the trust irreparably depending on the magnitude of the lie. I’m also saying that a workplace cannot be functional without trust, and that a workplace that tolerates dishonesty will invariably erode it. So unless you want to exist in such a workplace,…

You ever politely laugh at something you really didn't find all that funny? Human social interactions are built on small deceptions. Some amount of dishonesty is required if you want to avoid being an awkward social pariah. If you are incapable of any social dishonesty whatsoever, you will quickly be labeled an inappropriate, self righteous asshole. Of course there is a limit to those social norms. Dishonesty that ex…

I’m very worried that so many people here seem to think it’s impossible to be empathetic with people without being dishonest.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#315

Post by extra88 » Wed, May 16, 2018, 4:19 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #306

extra88 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing wrong with considering a shared previous employer a "plus"; the hiring manager knows the employer so if a candidate was good enough for them, there's some reason to think they're good enough for you. If the work environments are similar it could also mean getting them up to speed more quickly. There's nothing wrong with asking the opinions of people other than those a candidate directs you to. With b…

Asking people who weren't listed as references can cause all kinds of trouble. In this case the candidate said they left on good terms, but given the author's willingness to go beyond what is "considered kosher" says to me that they likely do this all the time. Even if you're not asking people at a candidate's current employer, if you start poking around asking all of your contacts about someone and it gets back to t…

> asking all of your contacts about someone

That escalated quickly.

Checking references is one of the last things we do and insist that one be their a current manager so being "outed" by someone else isn't an issue. If I talk to a non-reference who I think is in a position to know about a candidate's performance, I would make it clear that discretion is called for; that's no guarantee but again, reference checks are the end game, they're either "the one" or maybe one of two if it's a really hard choice.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#316

Post by Stratoscope » Wed, May 16, 2018, 4:25 AM UTC

lovich wrote: post #302

lovich wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why you want to avoid it? His response seems reasonable to me. When you have companies posting obvious lies like requiring 5 years in a 1 year old techonology, the whole process just becomes a lot of surreptitious winking as both sides knowingly lie to each other

as an aside to the conversation. I am continuing to get up an down votes on this comment, long after the comment I replied to was flagged. 'dang, are votes queued up in the hacker news system or is there another reason for this behavior?

People who have "showdead" enabled in their profile can see flagged or dead comments and their replies, and can vote on those replies.

As an example, I just upvoted your comment that I'm replying to. Turn on "showdead" in your profile and you will see what I'm referring to.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#317

Post by fusiongyro » Wed, May 16, 2018, 4:29 AM UTC

gowld wrote: post #125

fusiongyro wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these social networks are really important for candidates like this catfish, but for those of us who know WTF we're doing, I kind of doubt it. It's certainly a trope that developers are antisocial. If you know what you're doing, it won't be hard to manifest people with credentials who will talk about it.

If you're antisocial, how will references know or remember you, and how will you remember who to cite as references?

Using my brain, like humans did before LinkedIn. It's quite easy for me to remember who my bosses were and which of my junior devs can actually produce code and which cannot. There's no need to be fatuous. If you can't recall who you worked for most recently, you have a much bigger problem than mere introversion.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#318

Post by jmspring » Wed, May 16, 2018, 4:30 AM UTC

Kenji wrote: post #180

mrbill wrote: post #87

You just never know who might turn up from your past... 1999: I was a sysadmin at an ISP in Austin. One day we had a tour come through, people looking to see if they wanted to colo in our datacenter. In walks in the former CEO and most of the technical staff from the Oklahoma City-based ISP I'd started my career at and left in '96. We laughed, shook hands.. and they headhunted me away a couple months later with a 200…

Question: What is freemasonry about and why did you join it? I read up on them quite a bit but I just didn't find any good examples of actual goals and activities they are pursuing. Do Masons have a hacker mentality?

The path to becoming a mason is first by reaching out to your local lodge. The person who responds can help you with the process.

Beyond masons, there are the elks, the moose, and in parts of the West Clampers.

Each have their lodges, their rituals, and focus. I started the mason path, but life got busy. I’m a Moose member and a Clamper.

In all cases, the focus is community. In most cases, and this is what I appreciate, you are dealing with people across the spectrum of jobs/backgrounds/and economics.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#319

Post by learc83 » Wed, May 16, 2018, 4:32 AM UTC

extra88 wrote: post #315

learc83 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking people who weren't listed as references can cause all kinds of trouble. In this case the candidate said they left on good terms, but given the author's willingness to go beyond what is "considered kosher" says to me that they likely do this all the time. Even if you're not asking people at a candidate's current employer, if you start poking around asking all of your contacts about someone and it gets back to t…

> asking all of your contacts about someone That escalated quickly. Checking references is one of the last things we do and insist that one be their a current manager so being "outed" by someone else isn't an issue. If I talk to a non-reference who I think is in a position to know about a candidate's performance, I would make it clear that discretion is called for; that's no guarantee but again, reference checks are…

>That escalated quickly.

Clearly that was hyperbole.

>Checking references is one of the last things we do and insist that one be their a current manager so being "outed" by someone else isn't an issue.

What kind of positions are you hiring for where people are OK with this? The vast majority of managers aren't OK with employees who are actively looking for other work, despite what they may say.

Re: I Got Catfished by a Candidate

#320

Post by lovich » Wed, May 16, 2018, 4:34 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #312

lovich wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of Silicon Valley, there are many ridiculous hiring practices. On the east coast I have applied to multiple companies where I knew enough of the employees to get dinner with the team after. When we talked about hiring policies and practices all but one of those dinners ended up with a fight between the coworkers that fell into two teams of whether they should fail candidates over not wearing a suit because it…

I think this is a product of the relative immaturity of our industry, and the problems exist inside SV companies as well as outside. We tend to cargo cult interview practices from whomever the big player of the week is (IBM, then MS, now Google). Then we justify these awful hiring practices by convincing ourselves that programming is so hard that of course we need to put candidates through 6 rounds of interviews and…

Agreed on the immaturity of our industry being a cause for problems. The industrial revolution took nearly 100 years to permeate through society and create standard practices for many industries. Computer technology and science has only been around for a little over half of that, and the fact that the majority of it is abstractions that our brains didnt evolve for as opposed to plain physics which we do have instincts for, appears to be making it harder for us to come to a consensus as to the right way to solve these problems