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Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

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111–120 of 127 posts

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#111
post #28

My guess is that this is mostly political in that if Hillary were in the WH, this would not have been news despite a likely increase in “droning”, given her expression around droning. If they really had ethical concerns they’d have quit long ago given all the data collected from their users —I get it advertising is their bread and butter. We’ll see how GDPR affects their behavior at home and if it means anything.

If they really had ethical concerns they’d have quit long ago given all the data collected from their users Because everyone who doesn't share your ethics must have none? I like and support the GDPR, but that's the most intolerant statement I've read in a while on HN.

Ironic, considering the rain of downvotes on posts that disagree with the resignations.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#112

Good on them. Weaponizing mass surveillance will the most evil any company has ever done. Soon enough we are going to have drone flying done the street and stopping us to scan our face. No one will bat an eye as it's for "our protection" and nothing _more_. Make no mistake we are competing with China.

You mean what Google is already doing? You know how they make their money right?

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#113
post #97
post #13

Very respectable decision in my book. Walking the walk, not just talking the talk. You just can't abstract yourself away from ethical decisions ad infinitum. The level of self-deception needed to convince oneself that this, or whatever US military tech for that matter, would only be used for defensive purposes is mind-boggling to me.

The history of technology and the military in the US is more complex than the myopic "Military is Bad" style of arguments that have been vogue as of late. Preventing the US military from using that technology doesn't stop China or Russia from upgrading their systems to use it.

> "The history of technology and the military in the US is more complex than the myopic "Military is Bad" style of arguments that have been vogue as of late."

It seems to me the "Military is Bad" idea goes back to 60's and is more about "the status quo U.S. foreign interference system is bad" than the myopic "the Military is Bad in principle" you seem to suggest. People mostly know it is important to have a military. But that does not mean supporting all its current activities.

> "Preventing the US military from using that technology doesn't stop China or Russia from upgrading their systems to use it."

I think the general opposition to drones killing people is directed at all countries, not just the U.S.A., so your response is no argument.

The history of technology and military also shows that Russia and China creating new dangerous ways of killing and destruction is closely linked to U.S. technology lead. One can go as far as say that the faster the U.S. develops it, the faster the Russians and Chinese will have it.

The only working way to prevent those technologies from being used on people is to desist developing them, guard the existing ones and agree on not using them - treaties, like for nukes, bioweapons, etc.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#114
post #13

Very respectable decision in my book. Walking the walk, not just talking the talk. You just can't abstract yourself away from ethical decisions ad infinitum. The level of self-deception needed to convince oneself that this, or whatever US military tech for that matter, would only be used for defensive purposes is mind-boggling to me.

I respect the workers for walking away. If they are committed pacifists, then more power to them. As for me, I'm a proud military veteran. I believe a strong US military helps make the world a better and safer place. So I'd keep that job and work it as best as I could. Different strokes for different folks. Life's too short to hate people who think differently.

Yours is an interesting opinion - what makes you 'believe a strong US military helps make the world a better and safer place'? Did you think about the probabilities that this strong military will be misused to do the opposite?

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are limits to the idea of trying to get inside and change the organization from within. To take the idea to a ridiculous extreme, you wouldn't tell someone that they should join ISIS and change it from within because Islamic terrorism is going to happen with or without them. I'd also question your bedrock assumption, that Google has much higher ethical standards than Raytheon. Why should we think this beyond "d…

Your ridiculous extreme is non-nonsensical as it is a straw man to intimate any equivalency between ISIS and Alphabet's machine learning division. As well, the Department of Defense often has open bidding for contracts for defense technologies. If Alphabet is competing for a contract, you can almost certainly be guaranteed that another corporation is bidding for the same contract. Individual employees have a say in h…

In a hierarchical corporation, individual employees execute the will of their superiors. They can tweak the implementation of the product, but in this case they most probably have no power to prevent it from being implemented.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#116
post #6

I'm glad this attitude didn't exist in the 1940s. Otherwise we all might be speaking German.

You mean 'anti foreign war involvement' sentiment. It did exist, the U. S. power structures were divided on the question of involvement in the war in Europe.

The sentiment of the opposing ex-Googlers is about something different: arming post-Iraq,Afghanistan,Syria U.S. government with more weapons to do more of the same, when there is no comparable war going on.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#117
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is not a threat. Russia, North Korea, and certain Middle East countries are.

Why do you think so? China is pretty much the only one that may be a threat. North Korea is a blip on the radar at worst. Russia is fading away and fast.

> Russia is fading away and fast.

How can you say that? They have more active nuclear warheads than U. S., plenty to overwhelm any current AB system. Do you count on the AB system getting better so as to eliminate MAD?

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#118
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the existential, Germany&Japan-level threat we're facing right now?

China and Russia, and the general lack of democracy in certain oil-laden countries.

They are a threat to U. S. in the sense they do not align themselves well to U. S. interests and have lots of nukes. But they are no Germany&Japan level threat; sure, their actions and demands need to be taken seriously, they cannot be labeled as 'terrorist', but at the same time, decades after 2nd world war, they did not begin any large scale military attack on the West, and there is no indication they desire/plan to do so.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#119
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The history of technology and the military in the US is more complex than the myopic "Military is Bad" style of arguments that have been vogue as of late. Preventing the US military from using that technology doesn't stop China or Russia from upgrading their systems to use it.

> "The history of technology and the military in the US is more complex than the myopic "Military is Bad" style of arguments that have been vogue as of late." It seems to me the "Military is Bad" idea goes back to 60's and is more about "the status quo U.S. foreign interference system is bad" than the myopic "the Military is Bad in principle" you seem to suggest. People mostly know it is important to have a military.…

> It seems to me the "Military is Bad" idea goes back to 60's and is more about "the status quo U.S. foreign interference system is bad" than the myopic "the Military is Bad in principle" you seem to suggest.

You may be right, but that's an issue with the white house administration and those telling the military what to do, not with the military itself. It has always seemed to me that if you never liked what the military was doing, it was a political disgreement, not an issue with the military itself.

> I think the general opposition to drones killing people is directed at all countries, not just the U.S.A., so your response is no argument.

> The history of technology and military also shows that Russia and China creating new dangerous ways of killing and destruction is closely linked to U.S. technology lead.

It seems to me that wanting military superiority (or equality in some cases) is enough of a reason to pursue new weapon systems, and that will happen regardless of whether or not the US has the technology.

Einstein sent a letter to the US president in 1939, and then two more in 1940 to warn the US of upcoming technological advances and urged the US to start a nuclear weapons program. I mention this, because we developed nuclear weapons out of fear that someone else would do it, and we needed a deterrent. And that was obvious to people like Einstein.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein%E2%80%93Szil%C3%A1rd_...

> The only working way to prevent those technologies from being used on people is to desist developing them, guard the existing ones and agree on not using them - treaties, like for nukes, bioweapons, etc.

That was a good approach 30 years ago, when we were fighting nation states. Now we're fighting large terrorist organizations that exist without a geographical border -- the types of people that would never sign a treaty.

Re: Google Employees Resign in Protest Against Pentagon Contract

#120
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The history of technology and the military in the US is more complex than the myopic "Military is Bad" style of arguments that have been vogue as of late." It seems to me the "Military is Bad" idea goes back to 60's and is more about "the status quo U.S. foreign interference system is bad" than the myopic "the Military is Bad in principle" you seem to suggest. People mostly know it is important to have a military.…

> It seems to me the "Military is Bad" idea goes back to 60's and is more about "the status quo U.S. foreign interference system is bad" than the myopic "the Military is Bad in principle" you seem to suggest. You may be right, but that's an issue with the white house administration and those telling the military what to do, not with the military itself. It has always seemed to me that if you never liked what the mili…

"That was a good approach 30 years ago, when we were fighting nation states. Now we're fighting large terrorist organizations that exist without a geographical border -- the types of people that would never sign a treaty."

True, but this doesn't require AI drones. To me that is just well crafted propaganda to make people (voters) accept further military expenses. Name one terrorist attack anywhere in the world in the last 20 years, therefore including 9/11, that could have been stopped by a swarm of AI drones (1). Today terrorism can be fought only with intelligence ops and cooperation between nations; we're talking about people either using AK47s and explosives just like 30 years ago, or driving vans to hit pedestrians. There's no war declaration in advance, therefore there's no identifiable enemy until the precise moment they hit. In this scenario you can't stop their action no matter the weapons at your disposal, not even alien technology, death rays, sharks with friggin lasers on their back or the Millennium Falcon itself. Enemies like those can be fought in one way: knowing them, foreseeing their moves and possibly infiltrating them, all actions involving intelligence, not weapons; with the right approach we don't need anything more advanced than what was available decades ago to fight them. But of course this reasoning doesn't help the weapon industry, so their puppets are instructed to brainwash people into thinking we need ultra advanced technologies when it's utter bullshit created to protect the weapons business.

(1) Actually the 9/11 attacks outcome could have been reduced by using AI drones, if they existed back then. Let's say the control tower operators realized a terrorist attack was in act on a number of planes and they knew the terrorists were going to crash some of them onto populated buildings (which is unlikely as it was unheard of before, but let's just pretend that). A swarm of AI equipped drones could have been instructed to patrol every plane literally following it so that in case of an attack each drone could down the plane to reduce the number of victims. All fine, and in this context it could work: tune the drone to the airplane transponder and let it share the plane flight plan, so that it can identify immediately if it deviates from route; if it does check with traffic control and the military and if they command so, hit the plane. What could possibly go wrong? I'm not sure I'd want these things flying over my head 24/7 or behind my plane, not even for good reasons.

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