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Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

realpython.com

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Re: Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

#21

Post by coldtea »

tedmiston wrote: post #16
mistrial9 wrote: post #8

Python keeps evolving -- great ! and also, consider support for a stable Python 2.7 LTS .. you know, for more than five years from now?

The problem with this logic is it could be extended indefinitely into the future. Python 3.3 has been available since 2012. 2020 was already a deadline that had been pushed back at least once for 2.x. I understand volatility, but 5+ years in the software world is an eternity.

>The problem with this logic is it could be extended indefinitely into the future.

So? Why shouldn't it? The world still needs (and runs) untold millions of lines of Cobol.

It would take billions of money to move it over -- and it will take millions to move over legacy Python 2.x codebases.

Re: Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

#22

Post by jimmyswimmy »

tedmiston wrote: post #16
mistrial9 wrote: post #8

Python keeps evolving -- great ! and also, consider support for a stable Python 2.7 LTS .. you know, for more than five years from now?

The problem with this logic is it could be extended indefinitely into the future. Python 3.3 has been available since 2012. 2020 was already a deadline that had been pushed back at least once for 2.x. I understand volatility, but 5+ years in the software world is an eternity.

I guess we're getting off topic here but can't help myself.

> ...5+ years in the software world is an eternity.

There is no particular reason why we can't maintain stability. I can still run [some] Microsoft DOS programs from the '80s, though finally most of them need DOSBox to run. For the scientific programming community we need to be able to rely on relatively ancient code. This is why FORTRAN and Matlab are still used. For example the release notes for g77 at https://gcc.gnu.org/fortran/ say

> Legacy g77 code will compile fine in almost all cases

That's code from 1977 - 40 years ago! And the release notes are just nudging people towards the 1995 language standard, not declaring deprecation.

Re: Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

#23

Post by wyldfire »

coldtea wrote: post #21
tedmiston wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this logic is it could be extended indefinitely into the future. Python 3.3 has been available since 2012. 2020 was already a deadline that had been pushed back at least once for 2.x. I understand volatility, but 5+ years in the software world is an eternity.

> The problem with this logic is it could be extended indefinitely into the future. So? Why shouldn't it? The world still needs (and runs) untold millions of lines of Cobol. It would take billions of money to move it over -- and it will take millions to move over legacy Python 2.x codebases.

> The world still needs (and runs) untold millions of lines of Cobol.

shrug python organization isn't responsible for delivering a Cobol toolchain. They said they've set a deadline and it's open source so there's bound to be some popular vendors out there who you can buy support from. Just like you buy support from your Cobol vendor.

Most people who consume python are consuming it from a downstream vendor like a linux distro anyways. Commercial distros will likely offer extended support packages.

Re: Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

#24

Post by Nadya »

coldtea wrote: post #20
rspeer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python 2.7 has been stable and supported for almost 8 years -- how much more long term do you want? Even releases of Java only seem to get about 6 years of support.

> Python 2.7 has been stable and supported for almost 8 years -- how much more long term do you want? Forever? 2.x codebase are in the millions of lines of code in companies, and they won't be converted or go away anytime soon. And those will need security updates and bug fixes. Note that Google and Dropbox are still running tons of Python 2.x -- and those are two companies where Guido Vas Rossum himself has worked i…

Why 2.7? Why not 2.2? Why not 1.3? Why not 1.0?

At some point you need to require others to update. Or they can hire consultants like companies do for Cobol.

Re: Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

#25

Post by wyldfire »

jimmyswimmy wrote: post #22
tedmiston wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this logic is it could be extended indefinitely into the future. Python 3.3 has been available since 2012. 2020 was already a deadline that had been pushed back at least once for 2.x. I understand volatility, but 5+ years in the software world is an eternity.

I guess we're getting off topic here but can't help myself. > ...5+ years in the software world is an eternity. There is no particular reason why we can't maintain stability. I can still run [some] Microsoft DOS programs from the '80s, though finally most of them need DOSBox to run. For the scientific programming community we need to be able to rely on relatively ancient code. This is why FORTRAN and Matlab are still…

> There is no particular reason why we can't maintain stability. I can still run [some] Microsoft DOS programs from the '80s

In fact, there isn't, you are 100% correct. I don't think anyone on the python dev team thinks that somehow 2.7 "can't" be maintained.

Grab the 2.7 branch [1] and build and test it on your favorite OS. If it still works tomorrow or next year, or in the 2080s, congratulations! You got a working product and you apparently didn't need any support.

> That's code from 1977 - 40 years ago!

Python's popularity will ensure that some group, somewhere will champion 2.7. And maybe in ~2030 we'll still see active support.

[1] https://github.com/python/cpython/tree/2.7

Re: Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

#26

Post by sametmax »

coldtea wrote: post #20
rspeer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python 2.7 has been stable and supported for almost 8 years -- how much more long term do you want? Even releases of Java only seem to get about 6 years of support.

> Python 2.7 has been stable and supported for almost 8 years -- how much more long term do you want? Forever? 2.x codebase are in the millions of lines of code in companies, and they won't be converted or go away anytime soon. And those will need security updates and bug fixes. Note that Google and Dropbox are still running tons of Python 2.x -- and those are two companies where Guido Vas Rossum himself has worked i…

> Forever?

You can have support forever.

You just can't have it __for free__ forever.

There are companies out there that will happily sell you the service.

You already get an amazing tech for free, and support of 2 decades in you take all the 2.X branch in consideration (e.g: 4 times the ubuntu LTS). You complaining at this point is just insulting the community.

I find it infuriating. When the JS or Ruby community breaks stuff, they give a few weeks notice, and a few months to migrate. Nobody complains. Python give 10 years, a lot of tooling and tutorials, and some people keep complaining. This is where being too nice is a problem.

In 2020, I'll triple my price for any work on 2.7. I'm done being fair to people with such ingratitude.

Re: Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

#27

Post by sametmax »

mistrial9 wrote: post #11
rspeer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python 2.7 has been stable and supported for almost 8 years -- how much more long term do you want? Even releases of Java only seem to get about 6 years of support.

Perl 5 runs well after... twenty five years?

Python 2 will not stop running in 2020. No bomb is gonna explode. The dozen of volunteers will just stop providing free work for bug fix and security update.

Re: Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

#28

Post by sametmax »

jimmyswimmy wrote: post #22
tedmiston wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this logic is it could be extended indefinitely into the future. Python 3.3 has been available since 2012. 2020 was already a deadline that had been pushed back at least once for 2.x. I understand volatility, but 5+ years in the software world is an eternity.

I guess we're getting off topic here but can't help myself. > ...5+ years in the software world is an eternity. There is no particular reason why we can't maintain stability. I can still run [some] Microsoft DOS programs from the '80s, though finally most of them need DOSBox to run. For the scientific programming community we need to be able to rely on relatively ancient code. This is why FORTRAN and Matlab are still…

But you can. You will be able to run Python 2 in 5 years if you want. Nobody prevents you too. The official community will just stop working on it. Just like for DOS, which an alternative community picked up.

Re: Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

#29

Post by sametmax »

coldtea wrote: post #21
tedmiston wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this logic is it could be extended indefinitely into the future. Python 3.3 has been available since 2012. 2020 was already a deadline that had been pushed back at least once for 2.x. I understand volatility, but 5+ years in the software world is an eternity.

> The problem with this logic is it could be extended indefinitely into the future. So? Why shouldn't it? The world still needs (and runs) untold millions of lines of Cobol. It would take billions of money to move it over -- and it will take millions to move over legacy Python 2.x codebases.

If you have that cash, you can pay Continmum for commercial support and stop asking people to give you stuff for free forever.

Or, alternatively, you can start spending your week end, for free, working on maintaining it.

Re: Guide to Data Classes in Python 3.7

#30

Post by sametmax »

ceronman wrote: post #13
mistrial9 wrote: post #8

Python keeps evolving -- great ! and also, consider support for a stable Python 2.7 LTS .. you know, for more than five years from now?

If you need Python 2.7 support after 2020, consider asking a consulting company to provide it for you. Python is maintained by volunteers. Providing support for more than 10 years is more than enough in my opinion. The community has moved on to 3, but I'm sure there will be companies doing consulting and fixing 2.x bugs for a fee.

No you don't understand, they are evil people for stopping to give us free candy after they did so for 10 years. They can't be working on better new free candies now, that's even worse ! Monsters !
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