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Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

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Re: Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

#21

Post by meric »

givan wrote: post #4

In a letter of October or November, 1674, Spinoza writes: Thus, I call a thing free that exists and acts out of the pure necessity of its nature; and I call it compelled, if its existence and activity are determined in a precise and fixed manner by something else. Thus God, for example, though necessary, is free, because he exists only out of the necessity of his nature. Similarly, God knows himself and everything el…

IMHO. There is no error. A person who is aware of their actions but not the causes by which their actions are guided, are not free. A human may have the capacity, but it may not be exercised, and if it is not, they are not free.

Re: Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

#22

Post by baldfat »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #18
baldfat wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understand the idea that Spinoza was an atheist. Sure his ideas of God were not Judeo-Christian but he did believe in the super-natural that we see in action through nature. Spinoza was 100% a theist and wrote about God and advocated for the evidence of a God. I almost laugh when agnostics try to use him as their champion. They are ramming their own beliefs into this Philosopher that it is not respectful to S…

Digression: I'm suspicious of philosophy because it throws around absolutes with nothing to back them. Like 'The mind is not capable of understanding blah blah'. Really? What is this supposition based upon? Its like saying there's a highest number we can understand - but what if we add 1 to that?

Welcome to philosophy and why we are still in this mess academically in the 21st Century.

Welcome to philosophy's number one question. What can we base anything on? To Spinoza it is rationalism. Soren Kierkegaard (My son is named after him) there is nothing but faith that we must leap upon when we have no faith.

Re: Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

#23

Post by coliveira »

baldfat wrote: post #14
samirillian wrote: post #12

Interesting how the judeo- Christian concept of immortality is so clearly harmful, while the Greek/ eastern concept of the transmigration of souls is so socially useful. For a Christian, at least, the world is a sinking ship. But for a Hindu, you will inherit the good and bad you do in this life in the next. Though, of course, that can lead to a different kind of fatalism in terms of treatment of the poor.

> For a Christian, at least, the world is a sinking ship. That isn't universal and as a Theological student it isn't even what is written in the scriptures. In fact you can't read anywhere in the scriptures where people go to heaven, but it talks about people living here on earth. It's hard to make universal statements.

It's hard to make universal statements because the bible is shock full of contradictory statements. Jesus says explicitly that large is the path that leads to damnation and that few will be chosen by him. So, while some will have redemption, the story goes that most of humanity will end up in despair. Of course, other texts can be used to conclude the opposite, which is the normal fashion for bible interpretation.

Re: Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

#24

Post by Retra »

meric wrote: post #20
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Digression: I'm suspicious of philosophy because it throws around absolutes with nothing to back them. Like 'The mind is not capable of understanding blah blah'. Really? What is this supposition based upon? Its like saying there's a highest number we can understand - but what if we add 1 to that?

By your definition once 1 is added it’s not a number we can understand.

Yes, but the claim is that there is such a number, not that it can be defined.

Re: Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

#25

Post by coliveira »

zambal wrote: post #10
NoB4Mouth wrote: post #7

Spinoza was to the medieval Europe what Socrates had been to the Ancient Greece. Their ideas came to free human mindset from the enslavement the religious. Those ideas were a threat to the establishment of their days that were using gods to prey on the masses. No wonder Socrates has to be sentenced to death. Spinoza found refuge in the then tolerant Netherlands. Coincidence or not? Spinoza middle name is Benedictus =…

Spinoza didn't find refuge in the Netherlands, he was born there. His grandfather moved from Portugal to the Netherlands though.

I think this is in reference to his family moving due to religious persecution.

Re: Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

#26

Post by coliveira »

baldfat wrote: post #13

I find reading Spinoza's rational idea of Ethics oddly resolves around the concept of love. I find that I first read Spinoza as the source for Spock in Star Trek. First the idea of love for Spinoza is that truly free persons actively avoid love as in love is a passion. Second that the "rational/noble" love of doing good to others ethically is the center piece of ethics. Proposal 43 "Hatred is increased by being recip…

Is important to be aware that the word love has lost its meaning throughout the ages. Love for the ancient and medievals was akin to the word passion, which means literally suffering. Its meaning was like "suffering for someone or something else", which we would call altruistic. Modern love is more akin to "like", and has a general meaning of "mutual affinity". Like many concepts in the modern world, it acquired a individualistic connotation that didn't exist in the past.

Re: Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

#27

Post by dEnigma »

NoB4Mouth wrote: post #7

Spinoza was to the medieval Europe what Socrates had been to the Ancient Greece. Their ideas came to free human mindset from the enslavement the religious. Those ideas were a threat to the establishment of their days that were using gods to prey on the masses. No wonder Socrates has to be sentenced to death. Spinoza found refuge in the then tolerant Netherlands. Coincidence or not? Spinoza middle name is Benedictus =…

The current pope is called Francis, or Franciscus.

Re: Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

#28

Post by rskar »

coliveira wrote: post #26
baldfat wrote: post #13

I find reading Spinoza's rational idea of Ethics oddly resolves around the concept of love. I find that I first read Spinoza as the source for Spock in Star Trek. First the idea of love for Spinoza is that truly free persons actively avoid love as in love is a passion. Second that the "rational/noble" love of doing good to others ethically is the center piece of ethics. Proposal 43 "Hatred is increased by being recip…

Is important to be aware that the word love has lost its meaning throughout the ages. Love for the ancient and medievals was akin to the word passion, which means literally suffering. Its meaning was like "suffering for someone or something else", which we would call altruistic. Modern love is more akin to "like", and has a general meaning of "mutual affinity". Like many concepts in the modern world, it acquired a in…

Could you give a citation for that "love for the ancient and medievals was akin to the word passion"? My understanding of that love-to-passion link is by way of Christianity, i.e. love as the motivation for the suffering (of Jesus). Otherwise, etymology doesn't show/suggest that sort of change in the meaning of "love" (e.g. http://www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/110566). If anything, there's been a change in the meaning of "passion" (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/passion).

Re: Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

#29

Post by hutzlibu »

About the enigma of why he was cursed and expelled of the jewish community:

"If we think that God is like us, an agent who acts for the sake of ends and who, by issuing commands, makes known his expectations and punishes those who do not obey, we will be dominated by the passions of hope and fear: hope for eternal reward and fear of eternal punishment. This will, in turn, lead us towards submission to ecclesiastic authorities who claim to know what God wants The resulting life is one of “bondage” – psychological, moral, religious, social and political enslavement – rather than the liberating life of reason."

.. well, if he said something like this before and in a way, that people listened to him, than this was a direct assault to the priests, the Rabbis, of the community. And also to the general foundations of jewish religion - so they probably saw it as a existential threat - therefore their harsh reaction.

Re: Spinoza’s philosophy of freedom

#30

Post by brain5ide »

ezequiel-garzon wrote: post #8
NoB4Mouth wrote: post #7

Spinoza was to the medieval Europe what Socrates had been to the Ancient Greece. Their ideas came to free human mindset from the enslavement the religious. Those ideas were a threat to the establishment of their days that were using gods to prey on the masses. No wonder Socrates has to be sentenced to death. Spinoza found refuge in the then tolerant Netherlands. Coincidence or not? Spinoza middle name is Benedictus =…

Francis is not legit?

Yeah. It was basically like Underwood in HoC.
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