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The Medieval Mindset (2017)

coinsandscrolls.blogspot.com

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Re: The Medieval Mindset (2017)

#41
This is quite good, though I disagree on one point:

> "FORGET...Progress"

I mean I completely agree, it's just for the modern reader infected with the victorian idea of "progress" (which has also polluted most people's understanding of how evolution works) this difference is even more profound.

There was a common belief in a largely static social order; why try for profound change? You can try to usurp the king, but that just shows that the old king was illegitimate, and anyway only certain people could get away with it.

But the other significant and related force was one of declinism: the romans had had a more advanced society (look at all their artifacts still around! Their literature!) and that, perhaps due to original sin, the then-current world was a less advanced society.

Re: The Medieval Mindset (2017)

#42
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. People tend to forget that the Middle Ages lasted for a thousand years. When all the conflicts are put together it seems there were only murderous barbarians out there trying to murder and/or rape you. But most areas were war-free most of that time. The reason that Barbara Tuchman wrote about France in the 14th century is that there happened so much. Monty Python and The Holy Grail was not a documentary but s…

>But most areas were war-free most of that time. Can anyone verify that? I imagine that the last 2,000 years have been filled with territorial disputes that were solved with the blood of males. The survivors of the battle getting to keep the land and the women. I dont think these were petty disputes either, I think these were rational decision making from leadership. But I really dont know. Ive thought about this que…

Depends on what you consider "filled". Most people or their living relatives saw some sort of action. But in many cases it was once-in-lifetime happening. On top of that, a big chunk of medieval wars were meet-you-in-a-field-out-of-town kind of affairs.

As for royal vs. peasant.. big chunk of "blue blood" royalty had genetic diseases thanks to intermarriage to keep pure blood.. Meanwhile peasants knew it's not good to marry exclusively inside of a village and tried to spice things up by mixing with neighbouring villages.

Re: The Medieval Mindset (2017)

#43
post #28

>We live in an enlightened era. Our mental toolboxes are full to bursting with evidence-based reasoning, with precedent, with doubt, and with logic. We hold many truths to be self evident. We stand on the shoulders of intellectual giants and we think this plain of shoulders is ground level. >If you want to think medieval, chuck your entire toolbox out the window and start from scratch. You need to un-learn rationalit…

The thing that blows me away is homo sapiens have been around 300K years (latest evidence). Imagine living with a current brain psysiology 300K years ago. What the hell did we do for all that time?

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/world-s-oldest-homo-s...

Re: The Medieval Mindset (2017)

#44
post #28

>We live in an enlightened era. Our mental toolboxes are full to bursting with evidence-based reasoning, with precedent, with doubt, and with logic. We hold many truths to be self evident. We stand on the shoulders of intellectual giants and we think this plain of shoulders is ground level. >If you want to think medieval, chuck your entire toolbox out the window and start from scratch. You need to un-learn rationalit…

Enlightenment now by Steven pinker covers this in great detail (and is a fun read), if you’re interested in this sort of thing

Re: The Medieval Mindset (2017)

#45
post #33

This article is everything wrong with privileged moderns looking back on the past. The world and the humans within it hasn't changed at all, barring costumes and jewelry. The biggest fallacy in this article isn't that it's wrong per se; it's that the thesis distilled is "a member of the current intelligenstia criticizing the hoi polloi of the past" when the hoi polloi of their own current era are just as ignorant and…

[deleted]

Re: The Medieval Mindset (2017)

#46
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call shenanigans on all four points. 1. Delayed adulthood along with the carceral infantalization that accompanies it is purely a modern phenomenon. 2. Jousting was not nearly as common as popular culture presupposes. The notion that pitched battles, particularly ones that involved the nobility fighting personally and carelessly in melees, were encountered so frequently as to suffer from CTE goes against the histor…

1. This is an on-going debate to a certain degree (I mainly have encountered it via Phillipe Ariès's Centuries of Childhood ). But I have never bought the argument that childhood is a modern invention. If you actually read primary sources from the period it is abundantly clear that parents sought to protect their children, that they treated children as different from adults, and that children were expected to behave…

1. Do you include adolscence within childhood? Because that might be where we're disagreeing. How would you define childhood?

2. I don't think a comparison between cultures where horse-riding is fundamental to one where it is primarily a leisure activity makes much sense when it comes to estimations of danger. Yes, hunts could result in injuries; I don't disagree there. However, if attrition was severe enough to impede the function of the martial culture, it wouldn't be actively propagated.

3. Yes, disfigurements and scarring would be common in the aftermath of epidemics, but in those situations, it's so common that to form cultural persecuting complexes around it is difficult to justify. Lepers, on the other hand...

4. That's really my entire point: the reason it's so hard for you to imagine is because, if you live in the United States, the entire existence of death has become divorced from culture and daily existence. It's an aberration and a taboo. In a culture where death during childhood is common, there are cultural forms that account for it. That doesn't mean that it is or isn't a loss, but that it accomodates and integrates that event within a broader chain of being. As far as judicial injunctions against infanticide go, early mortality is incidental to life, not fundamental. Actively destroying a potential person, particularly within a truly local culture, when it isn't already part of the folkways, is of course going to result in reprisal. However the very existence of cultures that practiced exposure shows that it isn't fundamental to the human condition to viscerally value the lives of infants unconditionally. As far as PTSD goes, it's largely about being unable to cope with a traumatic event. In a functional society, it seems unlikely to me that PTSD strictly as a pathology surrounding child loss would be a thing--and the sociology surrounding it as I've read it supports that assertion.

I really think our disagreement resides in our perceptions of how durable/fragile humans can be under duress. I think humans are especially resilient, particularly if given adequate cultural coping mechanisms within a culture.

Re: The Medieval Mindset (2017)

#47
post #43
post #28

>We live in an enlightened era. Our mental toolboxes are full to bursting with evidence-based reasoning, with precedent, with doubt, and with logic. We hold many truths to be self evident. We stand on the shoulders of intellectual giants and we think this plain of shoulders is ground level. >If you want to think medieval, chuck your entire toolbox out the window and start from scratch. You need to un-learn rationalit…

The thing that blows me away is homo sapiens have been around 300K years (latest evidence). Imagine living with a current brain psysiology 300K years ago. What the hell did we do for all that time? http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/world-s-oldest-homo-s...

It occurred to me some time ago that the big question is the opposite: What do we not do that humans thousands of years ago did with their brains?

My thoughts went like this:

Since the brain is quite expensive evolution would not have grown it so much if it had not been needed. But this means humans really used all that brain.

That means if we now use it for so many very different things in a very - very! - recent technological world, with an equally recent extreme increase in population density worldwide (both movement top cities as well as the unprecedented total population size increase), what exactly did they do?

I think that this indeed is a very interesting question, I'm not sure we can answer it. Medieval brains are one thing, but what about 20,000 years ago? The brain must already have been pretty much the same.

Re: The Medieval Mindset (2017)

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the Knights have CTE? Would it be from practicing with wooden swords and hitting each other in the head? Or would it be from falling off horses, or something else?

Jousting has to be at least as violent as two NFL players running full-bore at each other on a kick-off, and we know that's dangerous for CTE. Also once you got to close-quarters on medieval battlefields, your center torso would be covered up pretty well with armor or a shield, so most of the injuries are coming underneath stabbing into the groin and legs. Or from above, bashing down on the head and shoulders with ax…

>Jousting has to be at least as violent as two NFL players running full-bore at each other on a kick-off, and we know that's dangerous for CTE

I'm sure there was a lot of tournament (of which jousting was only a part) derived TMI, but its important to keep in mind that during the high and late middle ages battle and tournament armor were different. Tournament armor was less flexible and heavier, after all you don't want to get hurt in a game. There were several styles of helm that attach directly to the breast plate that make your head an torso a single unit: https://www.battlemerchant.com/images/product_images/popup_i... (you would probably never wear this on a battlefield)

>Also once you got to close-quarters on medieval battlefields, your center torso would be covered up pretty well with armor or a shield, so most of the injuries are coming underneath stabbing into the groin and legs. Or from above, bashing down on the head and shoulders with axes, maces, and hammery polearms.

This, your sword is your service pistol, your lance (mounted) or your polearm (unmounted) is your primary weapon as a man-at-arms. You will notice both Knight and Samuari developed the same 3 weapon system (poleweapon + sword + dagger). Also its worth noting that when rigid armor replaced (or was worn on top of) mail (no its not called chainmail) for most of the surface area the use of sheilds quickly declined and two-handed weapons increased. You were wearing your shield. (Also for anyone interested a suit of armor is a 'harness' to use the technical term, that is where we get the German term harnischfechten, the techniques for fighting in armor, which are distinct from blossfechten (shirt fighting), the term for the superset of techniques that work against unarmored opponents)

>I'm sure training was also a big component; thwacking each other with blunted blades would be rough when leather or wool padding is about the best you've got.

People have resurrected the old fighting manuals and its known as HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) today and encompasses armed, unarmed (strikes, grappling), unarmored and armored fighting. I do this and my cotton HEMA fencing jacket provides plenty of protection. I do no think training safety was an issue.

>Quarterstaffs were also popular - and that's not too far off from getting hit with a baseball bat.

Yes pole-weapons are much more dangerous than swords, but using the harnischfechten against anyone is dangerous, even with swords, since they are mean to kill people in armor.

>It's just concussions all around.

Its definitely a risk, but hardly a given. I have broken a finger, bruised bones, but even period head protection is quite effective.

Re: The Medieval Mindset (2017)

#49
post #33

This article is everything wrong with privileged moderns looking back on the past. The world and the humans within it hasn't changed at all, barring costumes and jewelry. The biggest fallacy in this article isn't that it's wrong per se; it's that the thesis distilled is "a member of the current intelligenstia criticizing the hoi polloi of the past" when the hoi polloi of their own current era are just as ignorant and…

Hi, trying to figure out how this site works. Hope you can see this!

It's good to see that someone else likes the Spencer case. It really is a fascinating case study.

Spencer was trapped in the legal quagmire of Puritan law. He didn't know what to do - he feared the law, and tried to obey his advisers, and generally made a legal mess of things. Looking at it from a great distance it's easy to see what he did wrong, but it's also important to remember that he was the victim of a hysterical hunt and an irrational prosecution.

I've written another high-level (and therefore, very general) overview of medieval laws and trials here: https://coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2017/08/thinking-medieva...

and I come to the same conclusion you do. "No one is going to defend this blaspheming piece of shit," is a core component of medieval justice.

I think you're also convinced that I'm claiming these things as uniquely medieval which isn't true. I'm trying to provide perspective for someone approaching this topic from a non-academic background of Disney movies and D&D games.

>Hint: Every class of intelligentsia throughout time thinks its own set of platitudes, dogmas, and evidence-derived conclusions are immaculate and inviolate. It's like a twisted form of Conway's Law 3 for ideology.

Well... yeah? You didn't think I was going on some sort of unironic Randian super-rant here?

>Conspicuous consumption is a medieval construct absent in the modern period.

I was mostly trying to contrast this with the modern idea of "net worth" and "worth so many billion dollars." Wealth as assets, not as an abstract.

>Uh, people revile people like the Kardashians?

Absolutely. Chat with the viewerbase. It's mostly "oh my god, did you see what they did now?" It's shock and drama and voyeurism. It's not a positive experience, despite being a popular one. Not sure if you're familiar with modern game streamers, but it's the same attitude.

>History is a long series of contentions, victories, and defeats by conflicting parties with their own self-evident and self-motivated truths--No people, no culture, no time is homogeneous, except to the extent that they are homogeneously heterogeneous.

Again, I think you are reading way too far into the intent.

Remember, I write a gaming blog. The goal is to try and allow a modern human to quickly adopt a point of view. Most people play medieval people exactly like modern people. Sure, my post deals in high-level generalities - it's designed to grind 1000 years of history and an entire continent and turn it into an easily digestible paste. And it's only 2,000 words long! Of course some detail is going to be lost! Of course important elements are going to be left out! Your response to a few elements is nearly as long as the post itself.

>My favorite counter-point to the implicit idea that people "in the past" were unthinking proto-humans unlike us is the entirely mundane ancient bathroom graffiti of Pompeii 5 that wouldn't be out of place in any public restroom anywhere.

And yet, for every similarity, differences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Emporium_of_Benevole...

Re: The Medieval Mindset (2017)

#50
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This is an on-going debate to a certain degree (I mainly have encountered it via Phillipe Ariès's Centuries of Childhood ). But I have never bought the argument that childhood is a modern invention. If you actually read primary sources from the period it is abundantly clear that parents sought to protect their children, that they treated children as different from adults, and that children were expected to behave…

1. Do you include adolscence within childhood? Because that might be where we're disagreeing. How would you define childhood? 2. I don't think a comparison between cultures where horse-riding is fundamental to one where it is primarily a leisure activity makes much sense when it comes to estimations of danger. Yes, hunts could result in injuries; I don't disagree there. However, if attrition was severe enough to impe…

Interesting discussion here, and I certainly don't disagree that humans are resilient. All I'll add (re: point 4) is that I literally spent 2-3 months translating letters sent by Portuguese soldiers stationed in 17th century Angola as part of my PhD research. Those guys were among the most deeply unhappy individuals I've ever encountered in an archive. They were completely unable to cope with the severity of disease and death all around them. I think they're more of the norm than many recognize, because most of us don't spend time reading through primary source letters in archives. I think that spending a lot of my mental life in the 17th century makes me fairly well placed to imagine what it's like to lose a child in that world, and I really don't see what you'r arguing here reflected in the archives.

If anyone reading this is interested, btw, the depiction of a fictional Thomas Cromwell's loss of a child in Hilary Mantel's Wolf Hall struck me as incredibly well-observed and accurate. I really loved that part of the book.

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