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Why are so many programmers arrogant?

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Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#81

Post by Mz »

j_baker wrote: post #59
Mz wrote: post #5

I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded of a personal anecdote: In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me. I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery. Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have cosmetic surg…

I agree with this. A lot of people probably consider me arrogant and stubborn. Honestly, I don't care though. Arrogance and stubborn are only flaws when you're wrong . On the other hand, being arrogant and stubborn about the truth is a virtue in my opinion.

I think there is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. And if you know for a fact that you are right, it can be difficult to back down, even in the face of enormous social pressure. I'm not comfortable with saying that arrogance and stubbornness about the truth is a virtue, but I would say that someone who is sincerely devoted to pursuing the truth and sharing it is at high risk of being viewed as arrogant and stubborn.

I used to frequently get accused of being an egomaniac. More recently, I am fairly frequently accused of being a liar. I have concluded that, in my case, accusations of ego indicate people think it can be done, just not necessarily by me. But accusations that I am a liar mean they don't believe it can be done at all, by anyone. Since I have, in fact, accomplished what I claim to have done, I can't bring myself to claim otherwise merely to appease the critics. I do still wrestle with the possibility of whether or not I should simply shut up about it, but that brings up the dilemma that people who are sincerely interested in the information would also be denied. So far, I have been unable to reconcile myself to that route. I still have no good answers. But I wrestle with such questions a lot.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#82

Post by rick_2047 »

kabdib wrote: post #36
rick_2047 wrote: post #20

Any person who has rational thoughts in this diplomatic world would seem arrogant to some scale. Example, Rational:"The education system in India is seriously broken beyond repair. Anyone who succeeds, succeeds despite the system and not because of the system." Diplomatic:"The education system of India is not really on the right track, but we have a real flow of potential. This is evident by the number of people that…

So, how does the Diplomatic track then get to address the brokenness? "But you said we were on the right track?"

The diplomats said we were on the right track, but it was just fancy words for we are totally fucked

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#83

Post by Mz »

tomjen3 wrote: post #78
itg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can state the same thing different ways depending on the words you use, tone of voice, etc. Just because you are brilliant in one field doesn't give you a pass to look down on everyone else.

I didn't read it as putting him down at all. This wasn't a competition between the patient and the surgeon about whose medical skills where the best, but about the surgeons skills against the reality of the cyst.

I didn't think (s)he was calling me brilliant but unpolished. ;-)

I took it as more of a general observation, which I agree with but I don't think it makes for some of kind of rebuttal to my conclusion, which basically amounts to: If you really are extremely good at something, asserting that you are that good is likely to sound arrogant to other people even if it is simply factual. I try to keep stuff like that in mind and not jump to conclusions about the size of a person's ego based on limited data. Other people seem to generally be very willing to jump to such conclusions on very limited data. I offer the anecdote to suggest that, if programmers are generally competent and intelligent, it won't much matter how humbly they present themselves. Their competence will rub plenty of people the wrong way, no matter how many sets of velvet gloves they have for all social occasions.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#84

Post by dtf »

Mz wrote: post #73
dtf wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arrogance born out of genius is more than tolerable. But arrogance born out of mediocrity, ignorance or insecurity is a more common and toxic blend.

Two thoughts: 1) Maybe you missed the "maybes" in my closing remarks. 2) Being exceptionally competent puts one in a social trap. It is generally not acceptable to state that you are that good. It is also not acceptable to lie, and downplaying your competence is a form of deception (aka "lying"). So if you are that good, there is no good answer when the topic comes up. I will also take this opportunity to note that t…

I hadn't missed your maybes. You're pondering the subtleties of this argument far more intelligently than my blunt comment does. But perhaps that's because you've had time to mature and reflect on your brush with arrogance, while I am still reeling from a recent encounter ;-)

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#85

Post by Mz »

dtf wrote: post #84
Mz wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two thoughts: 1) Maybe you missed the "maybes" in my closing remarks. 2) Being exceptionally competent puts one in a social trap. It is generally not acceptable to state that you are that good. It is also not acceptable to lie, and downplaying your competence is a form of deception (aka "lying"). So if you are that good, there is no good answer when the topic comes up. I will also take this opportunity to note that t…

I hadn't missed your maybes. You're pondering the subtleties of this argument far more intelligently than my blunt comment does. But perhaps that's because you've had time to mature and reflect on your brush with arrogance, while I am still reeling from a recent encounter ;-)

Oh, actual asinine behavior is not anything I have any fondness for. I hope your social road rash heals up quickly.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#86

Post by skowmunk »

Hmm... would it make more sense if the question used "... perceived as arrogant?" instead of just "arrogant?"?

(disclaimer: I am not a hard core programmer, if I were modest I would call myself a beginner)

I have been long perceived as arrogant and an aloof person, while I think I am not really one. Over time trying to analyze the root cause for this (it is a big problem as it interjects into developing personal relationships) perception and reading books and listening to audio books, I realized that there are some other aspects of me that cause this perception. some of them being:

1) Shyness (one of the reason - shy people avoid eye contact giving rise to the perception to others that they don't care about others and by default tag you as arrogant)

2) bad conversation skills - going into monologues ( when you are not into the habit of back and forth conversation style and go into monologues (being highly passionate about some topics doesn't' help either :)), the other party can think that you don't care to listen to others and can tag you as arrogant)

3) giving unsolicited advice ( I have received a hell lot of great advice over years from so many different people that is simply too valuable to put a price on. sometimes, in a misplaced and idealistic view of returning the favor, I used to go about giving unsolicited advice to friends and acquaintances, sometimes putting the value of 'enlightenment of another perspective' in others' problem solving over my relationship with them. I think it gave me lot of tags of being "arrogant", " What does he think of himself?", "he has got a chip on his shoulder" over the years and drained away many possible friendships)

Good thing I have started working on these three and hopefully should be better off in the future in the social aspects.

But coming back to the point, if the programmers that adn37 had in mind when posing this question are the shy type with poor social skills, I think it is highly possible that they may have come across as being more arrogant than they really are. Just one possibility.

Other, than that, I think the incidence of arrogance among programmers is as likely or not, as in any other professions.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#87

Post by gruseom »

Mz wrote: post #81
j_baker wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. A lot of people probably consider me arrogant and stubborn. Honestly, I don't care though. Arrogance and stubborn are only flaws when you're wrong . On the other hand, being arrogant and stubborn about the truth is a virtue in my opinion.

I think there is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. And if you know for a fact that you are right, it can be difficult to back down, even in the face of enormous social pressure. I'm not comfortable with saying that arrogance and stubbornness about the truth is a virtue, but I would say that someone who is sincerely devoted to pursuing the truth and sharing it is at high risk of being viewed as arrogant an…

Now I'm curious. What have you done that people believed couldn't be done at all?

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#88

Post by gruseom »

bedris wrote: post #19
Mz wrote: post #5

I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded of a personal anecdote: In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me. I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery. Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have cosmetic surg…

"If you done it, it ain’t bragging." -Walt Whitman

No way did Whitman say that.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#90

Post by gruseom »

marcusbooster wrote: post #21
jacquesm wrote: post #4

They're not really arrogant, they just come off as such. Programmers usually are pretty clever cookies and as a rule are more often right than wrong, even if the subject is not programming, that alone is enough to mark them as arrogant. We also tend to be an opinionated bunch. Some of them compound the problem by no longer considering other people to be occasionally right and them being wrong and do cross the line in…

A programmer is not a mathematician, physicist, or surgeon - and yet a programmer would put himself on that list.

I had Thanksgiving dinner with a brain surgeon once. I said "Wow, your work must be really challenging." He laughed and said, "Yeah, people think that." He went on to tell me that although he was one of the rising stars in his specialty, the truth was his work was mind-numbingly repetitive, he was bored and wanted to find something else to do in life. The surgeries he did required a great deal of precision but zero creativity. He was envious of people who write software.

Your comment is indicative in one interesting way. The challenge of programming is incongruent with its social status. This explains a lot of dysfunction in the software world (e.g. programmers having to choose between going into management or staying low-pay/low-status), but that's another story.

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