Live data from Hacker News

Why falling demand hasn't brought down college sticker prices

hechingerreport.org

31–40 of 56 posts

Re: Why falling demand hasn't brought down college sticker prices

#31
post #6

The article doesn't mention that middle management exploded at colleges in the last few years, and those people are going to try to hold on to their jobs no matter how low enrollment gets. http://blogs.wgbh.org/on-campus/2014/2/6/growth-nonacademic-... Also I think the part about half of tuition at one school going to "discounts and financial aid for freshmen" is misleading. That's not really costing the college mone…

It’s costs the college revenue, just as tax cuts cost the government revenue.

Kinda, I mean they're not really spending half their tuition on breaks so much as overstating tuition by 100%.

Re: Why falling demand hasn't brought down college sticker prices

#32
post #18

The first university I went to was probably suffering from all of the following: > the number of students is actually down by 2.6 million > they have struggled to reduce their costs > they’ve borrowed billions of dollars to build amenities they think will attract students After two years (2/3 of a degree in South Africa) I had been challenged by precisely one subject - all the while I was hemorrhaging money. The amen…

I'm not sure I understood your comment correctly - did you return to the same institution 10 years later, or did you go to a new one?

Re: Why falling demand hasn't brought down college sticker prices

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the podcast, at least, is that despite all of your points, colleges are taking on enormous amounts of debt, while enrollment is shrinking . They are losing money.

For established non-profit schools? Or new, mostly for-profit schools? I find it hard to believe any reputable, 20+ year-old, non-profit schools are losing money. They should own their assets outright, have extremely low interest rates on any outstanding debt, pay close to 0 taxes. Wages for non-executive staff are not keeping pace with inflation. How are they losing money?

In addition to large amounts of new construction, administrative staff has expanded massively [0].

Between 1975 and 2011, the number of full-time, tenured faculty at universities grew by 23%. The number of administrators grew by 369%. The trend seems to be to hire part-time and untenured faculty to keep salaries down, then hire more administrators.

[0]: See "Full-Time Nonfaculty Professional" at https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/files/2014%20salary...

Re: Why falling demand hasn't brought down college sticker prices

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For established non-profit schools? Or new, mostly for-profit schools? I find it hard to believe any reputable, 20+ year-old, non-profit schools are losing money. They should own their assets outright, have extremely low interest rates on any outstanding debt, pay close to 0 taxes. Wages for non-executive staff are not keeping pace with inflation. How are they losing money?

Gotta have newer, shinier buildings! Not sure my alma mater has stopped construction since I went there, not sure how they pay for it all.

Same here. When I started my undergrad degree in 2006, my university had just built the first new residence hall in 20+ years. Since since I left in 2010, they've added two new academic buildings and two more 4+ story residence halls. Granted, enrollment continues to climb at the school, but they haven't stopped calling me multiple times a year looking for alumni donations...

Re: Why falling demand hasn't brought down college sticker prices

#35
post #18

The first university I went to was probably suffering from all of the following: > the number of students is actually down by 2.6 million > they have struggled to reduce their costs > they’ve borrowed billions of dollars to build amenities they think will attract students After two years (2/3 of a degree in South Africa) I had been challenged by precisely one subject - all the while I was hemorrhaging money. The amen…

I'm not sure I understood your comment correctly - did you return to the same institution 10 years later, or did you go to a new one?

I should have clarified that: a new one.

Re: Why falling demand hasn't brought down college sticker prices

#36

A few observations about this "will the traditional college survive" situation, which I've been following for a long time. The higher education market feels a bit like the healthcare market in that it's somewhat difficult for the consumer to tell what the actual cost will be prior to purchasing the product. Published tuition rates and other costs of attending school feel like they're abstracted until a long-term comm…

Except that the raw "information" taught in colleges doesn't represent enough value to even show up as a line item in a cost breakdown. Anyone can read a book, or even watch a lecture; the value add is access to research, access to professors, and perhaps most importantly, access to a community of motivated(to a degree) students all in plus/minus the same point in their lives. MOOCs on the internet can't compete on a…

The only "value add" for colleges is the signaling provided by getting the degree, i.e. going through the application process and committing to finishing a 4 year degree.

This is most easily measured in the income data for college-grads vs non-college-grads. This data is so easy to measure that you can measure the "value" of a college degree, currently something like $17K per year more for the graduates.

Re: Why falling demand hasn't brought down college sticker prices

#37

A few observations about this "will the traditional college survive" situation, which I've been following for a long time. The higher education market feels a bit like the healthcare market in that it's somewhat difficult for the consumer to tell what the actual cost will be prior to purchasing the product. Published tuition rates and other costs of attending school feel like they're abstracted until a long-term comm…

IMHO, the whole mindset about college is broken. There was a time in this country when the value of educating someone was viewed more from the perspective of society. We wanted people to go to college to have a more informed electorate and a more professional workforce. This started to change under Ronald Reagan's governorship in California and was completed under his presidency. And that was a shift towards viewing education as a benefit to the student.

It seems a subtle distinction, but it has a crucial effect on tuition rates. When it's looked at from the perspective of the benefit to the student, the upper bounds for how much an educational institution can charge is the financial benefit over the course of that student's career. When you look at it from the standpoint of benefiting society, it's in the best interest of the state to educate students as cheaply as possible. And we've seen the predictable results of the change in perspective with tuitions slowly rising towards that upper bound.

But you're right...placing the primary funding burden on an entity that is sensitive to price will likely put pressure on colleges to offer educations more efficiently. Though I do think your focus on football coaches is unwarranted. That's a simple equation...football brings in $Xm/yr so they give it a budget of $Ym/yr. As long as the delta between X and Y is as big as possible, it doesn't matter what Y is. The far more concerning thing, to me, is how long we've known about the concussion issue at this point and how little college football programs have done about this. We can look at the time period since CTE was first discovered as willfully endangering college football players and colleges will be on the hook for billions of dollars in lawsuits over the next 2 decades. This isn't particularly relevant to the issue we're talking about, but will have major ramifications in bottom lines for Universities, so will probably impact tuitions as well.

Re: Why falling demand hasn't brought down college sticker prices

#38
post #21
post #2

"Many institutions boasted, in the admission season just ended, that they had received record numbers of applications. What most very carefully didn’t say was that record numbers of applicants are lining up to be accepted." I read this like 3 times, then the article, then again, but I can't parse it. What is it really saying here?

The average person is applying to more colleges, but the total number of people attending college is decreasing. Therefore each college can promote that they received more applications than the previous year. People don't typically attend more than one college simultaneously. ex: 20 people applying to 3 colleges each, vs 10 people applying to 10 colleges each.

So basically like a conversion rate of applicants to students.

Re: Why falling demand hasn't brought down college sticker prices

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For established non-profit schools? Or new, mostly for-profit schools? I find it hard to believe any reputable, 20+ year-old, non-profit schools are losing money. They should own their assets outright, have extremely low interest rates on any outstanding debt, pay close to 0 taxes. Wages for non-executive staff are not keeping pace with inflation. How are they losing money?

Gotta have newer, shinier buildings! Not sure my alma mater has stopped construction since I went there, not sure how they pay for it all.

At least in top-tier research institutions I think this is because big-time philanthropists would rather see their name on a new building or expansion, than earmarked for maintenance of existing buildings. So capital expenditures outpace general operation costs born by state/local and current students/non-wealthy alumni.
Post reply on HN