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Gödel and the unreality of time

edwardfeser.blogspot.com

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Re: Gödel and the unreality of time

#11

Post by anvandare »

bazooka2th wrote: post #5
leni536 wrote: post #2

OK, so tldr: If you can't define a partial ordering between events (ie. "earlier than" as in A can cause B, "later than" as in A can be caused by B, "same time" as in there can be no causal relationship between A and B), then time as defined in B-theory can't exist. So what? What are the consequences?

From the article, "[this] casts doubt on the reality of time in our world". If the order is undefined, then how can you say I'm late?

The order between (1) "you being late" and (2) "you departing home at 09:05" is undetermined, but the events themselves aren't.

Or: it doesn't matter in which order you write the events of a story, as long as the events themselves are in order. The author is not bound by the timeline of the story.

Re: Gödel and the unreality of time

#12

Post by tpeo »

leni536 wrote: post #2

OK, so tldr: If you can't define a partial ordering between events (ie. "earlier than" as in A can cause B, "later than" as in A can be caused by B, "same time" as in there can be no causal relationship between A and B), then time as defined in B-theory can't exist. So what? What are the consequences?

Left as an exercise for the reader.

Re: Gödel and the unreality of time

#13

Post by Schiphol »

Folks are asking about the practical import of time not passing---if indeed it does not. I know of this rather substantial one: my fear of death, and I guess that of other people too, depends on the notion that my own annihilation in time, and that of everything I care about, is absolute and definitive. Existence no longer has me as one of its inhabitants, and that's that.

This picture is in its turn grounded on a presentist theory of time (the idea that only the present exists), or at least an A-theory of time (the idea that the present is somehow special, in absolute terms.) Nothing like that is true if time does not pass: all of the moments that make me and everything I care about are still there, occupying their own spacetime regions, eternal, in a way.

Realizing this has helped me see death from a slightly different perspective. It still sucks, but it no longer feels like the absolutely unaceptable deal I used to think it was.

Re: Gödel and the unreality of time

#14

Post by ccozan »

tpeo wrote: post #12
leni536 wrote: post #2

OK, so tldr: If you can't define a partial ordering between events (ie. "earlier than" as in A can cause B, "later than" as in A can be caused by B, "same time" as in there can be no causal relationship between A and B), then time as defined in B-theory can't exist. So what? What are the consequences?

Left as an exercise for the reader.

For example how this would correlate with the quantum entanglement, where the supposed spooky action is described as instantaneus, so this has no time to factor in. Not quite able to determine, which particle was actually seen/observed first so that you can have a causality flow.

Re: Gödel and the unreality of time

#15

Post by bambataa »

Schiphol wrote: post #13

Folks are asking about the practical import of time not passing---if indeed it does not. I know of this rather substantial one: my fear of death, and I guess that of other people too, depends on the notion that my own annihilation in time, and that of everything I care about, is absolute and definitive. Existence no longer has me as one of its inhabitants, and that's that. This picture is in its turn grounded on a pr…

While I can see that that's comforting, perhpas in the same way as believing that all your deceased loved ones are in heaven, does it really make a difference if we can't perceive those other 'there's?

Re: Gödel and the unreality of time

#16

Post by Schiphol »

bambataa wrote: post #15
Schiphol wrote: post #13

Folks are asking about the practical import of time not passing---if indeed it does not. I know of this rather substantial one: my fear of death, and I guess that of other people too, depends on the notion that my own annihilation in time, and that of everything I care about, is absolute and definitive. Existence no longer has me as one of its inhabitants, and that's that. This picture is in its turn grounded on a pr…

While I can see that that's comforting, perhpas in the same way as believing that all your deceased loved ones are in heaven, does it really make a difference if we can't perceive those other 'there's?

Well, supposing that heaven doesn't exist, it's very different at least in that they really are in those other, fully existing times.

Re: your suggestion that whatever cannot be perceived does not make a difference to us, I care deeply about the future wellbeing of my family, including those years I won't see because I'll be long dead. I'd bet you do too.

Re: Gödel and the unreality of time

#17

Post by reificator »

Schiphol wrote: post #13

Folks are asking about the practical import of time not passing---if indeed it does not. I know of this rather substantial one: my fear of death, and I guess that of other people too, depends on the notion that my own annihilation in time, and that of everything I care about, is absolute and definitive. Existence no longer has me as one of its inhabitants, and that's that. This picture is in its turn grounded on a pr…

If time is not a straight progression where the past is what happened and the now is reality and the future is what might happen, that's interesting and changes a lot about how we model things.

But as long as you can only perceive it as such, it's a meaningless distinction from a practical view.

Re: Gödel and the unreality of time

#19

Post by Schiphol »

reificator wrote: post #17
Schiphol wrote: post #13

Folks are asking about the practical import of time not passing---if indeed it does not. I know of this rather substantial one: my fear of death, and I guess that of other people too, depends on the notion that my own annihilation in time, and that of everything I care about, is absolute and definitive. Existence no longer has me as one of its inhabitants, and that's that. This picture is in its turn grounded on a pr…

If time is not a straight progression where the past is what happened and the now is reality and the future is what might happen, that's interesting and changes a lot about how we model things. But as long as you can only perceive it as such, it's a meaningless distinction from a practical view.

Hm, I would have expected more respect to the importance of the unperceived from a reificator.

Re: Gödel and the unreality of time

#20

Post by announcerman »

Schiphol wrote: post #13

Folks are asking about the practical import of time not passing---if indeed it does not. I know of this rather substantial one: my fear of death, and I guess that of other people too, depends on the notion that my own annihilation in time, and that of everything I care about, is absolute and definitive. Existence no longer has me as one of its inhabitants, and that's that. This picture is in its turn grounded on a pr…

How do you decide that your new view is valid and is not based on your need to lessen the fear of death. I have problems with this with every new thing I try to use to make death more palatable, be it religion, philosophy or anything else. I just cannot believe in anything because I feel its just a convenient way to make the fear smaller. How can any view be valid if its based on self interest?
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