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The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

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Re: The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

#11
post #4

One of the biggest reasons is that the US essentially subsidizes drugs for many other countries, such as Canada, that impose price controls, and threaten to allow other manufacturers to provide the drugs in their countries if the companies don't accept the imposed price. This enables these countries to get access to new medicine without paying the cost of developing the new medicine. Its time to end the trade war on…

I think you will find that this is what Big Pharma and their sockpuppets in Washington want you to believe.

Through reading up on the 'opioid epidemic' you realise that a lot of this 'innovation' is not that great. Slow release tablets? There is no big deal there. Furthermore a lot of this 'research' is backwards, i.e. create a molecule that can be patented, see how much of it kills rats and then try and find some medical benefit for this 'new molecule'. If it treats cancer then is that because it kind of prolonged someone's life by a week even if the others in the trial were essentially killed by the 'new molecule'?

This went on with AMGEN and Johnson + Johnson with the EPO drug that Lance Armstrong so enjoyed. They sold this drug into many, many 'off label' side markets - could the same molecule be good for stroke victims too? No trial data, but with profits to be made this sort of thing happens.

You can market a drug a dozen ways even if it is only paracetemol. Back pain? You can buy this tablet. Hangover? This one mixed with caffeine. Kids version? Brightly coloured with a lower dose per pill. Easy.

Then there are those drugs sold with the 'dating website' business model. The 'dating website' business model is to have a few success stories but have everyone else paying their subscription as long as possible. Statins are sold like this, the Big Pharma scam is to have people on these things for life.

The rest of the world - Canada included - care about healthcare more than money. In the UK healthcare is a service, not a business first and foremost. The NHS has to balance the books but not be putting profit before people. In the US it is backwards.

The rest of the world would do better without U.S. Big Pharma stifling innovation and sponging off their citizens.

Re: The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

#12
post #5

> Over time, Big Pharma learned how to game the law. As the patent for the original drug approached expiration, companies added wrinkles — a new coating for the pill, a time-release version, and so on — that they then patented. If the patents were approved, and they usually were, the exclusivity clock would start ticking all over again. This is so misleading. When this happens, only the new "wrinkles" are patented. T…

Yeah, my understanding with Humira is that to make generic version would essentially require a clone of the cell line that produces it. Abbot is under no obligation to give that to anyone else.

Anecdote. I take Humira for psoriatic arthritis. It works well for me. I have variously paid $0, $30, $180 for a 4 week supply. The insurance companies require that I use a specialty pharmacy to dispense this. Those companies appear to exist to put as many road blocks in the way of refills as possible. Long phone calls every month, shipping problems that cause a weeks delay, then all subsequent doses are delayed, then randomly need a pre-auth from my rheumatologist, before you know it insurance has managed to avoid paying for this medication for 3 months of the year

Re: The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

#13
post #4

One of the biggest reasons is that the US essentially subsidizes drugs for many other countries, such as Canada, that impose price controls, and threaten to allow other manufacturers to provide the drugs in their countries if the companies don't accept the imposed price. This enables these countries to get access to new medicine without paying the cost of developing the new medicine. Its time to end the trade war on…

are you sure that the cost of development is the real issue? the last numbers I saw, 2015, showed marketing budgets for medicine to be often times twice what was being spent on R&D in the US. currently, only four countries allow this time of marketing: New Zealand, Brazil, Hong Kong, and United States. it sounds like the US isn't necessarily subsidizing drug R&D, and instead is subsidizing marketing.

it costs aver $2.7B to get a drug approved based on the most accepted estimates. biggest cost is cost of failure. r&d is hard, highly regulated and expensive

Re: The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are you sure that the cost of development is the real issue? the last numbers I saw, 2015, showed marketing budgets for medicine to be often times twice what was being spent on R&D in the US. currently, only four countries allow this time of marketing: New Zealand, Brazil, Hong Kong, and United States. it sounds like the US isn't necessarily subsidizing drug R&D, and instead is subsidizing marketing.

it costs aver $2.7B to get a drug approved based on the most accepted estimates. biggest cost is cost of failure. r&d is hard, highly regulated and expensive

I'm not arguing that it isn't expensive, but when, for instance Johnson & Johnson spends $8.2B/yr on R&D, and spends $17.5B that same year on marketing those same drugs, it's hard to argue that the cost of R&D is the major issue here.

edited to add: especially when you look at the US R&D tax credit, available under section 41 of the tax code.

Re: The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

#15
post #5

> Over time, Big Pharma learned how to game the law. As the patent for the original drug approached expiration, companies added wrinkles — a new coating for the pill, a time-release version, and so on — that they then patented. If the patents were approved, and they usually were, the exclusivity clock would start ticking all over again. This is so misleading. When this happens, only the new "wrinkles" are patented. T…

> Nobody wants to spend money on marketing. If drug companies could recoup their investment faster by spending less on marketing, they would.

This doesn't pass my sniff test. The original article's point isn't that companies are marketing just so they can flush money down the toilet. Of course it's profitable. The article's point is that we as a society want them to spend more money on R&D; and our current strategy seems not to be working.

Companies would prefer to spend no money at all. If they could recoup their investment by spending no money on marketing, research, development, or production, they would. So a good company does the next best thing: they find the least costly, most efficient way to make money and prioritize that.

If companies are investing the majority of their resources into marketing, that at least suggests that they view marketing as the most efficient way to make money. Since we as a society would prefer that R&D be the most efficient way for them to make money, it may very well be reasonable to look for ways to decrease the cost of R&D and/or to increase the cost of marketing.

Shortening the exclusivity period of a patent might be an effective way to decrease the value of marketing, since marketing returns likely benefit from exclusivity.

Re: The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

#16
The example of Humira is a terrible one: as a monoclonal antibody, to produce the exact molecule would require another company getting its hands on the plasma cells that produce it.

It is not as simple as copying the chemical steps to produce the drug, as in Lipitor.

Complicating this, there is evidence that not all Monoclonal antibodies that act on the same receptor are made equal - some might be antagonists whereas others are agonists.

Re: The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

#17
post #4

One of the biggest reasons is that the US essentially subsidizes drugs for many other countries, such as Canada, that impose price controls, and threaten to allow other manufacturers to provide the drugs in their countries if the companies don't accept the imposed price. This enables these countries to get access to new medicine without paying the cost of developing the new medicine. Its time to end the trade war on…

are you sure that the cost of development is the real issue? the last numbers I saw, 2015, showed marketing budgets for medicine to be often times twice what was being spent on R&D in the US. currently, only four countries allow this time of marketing: New Zealand, Brazil, Hong Kong, and United States. it sounds like the US isn't necessarily subsidizing drug R&D, and instead is subsidizing marketing.

> the last numbers I saw, 2015, showed marketing budgets for medicine to be often times twice what was being spent on R&D in the US.

The marketing expense isn't necessarily avoidable.

Suppose it costs $50M to research a drug and patients will pay $1000 for a course of treatment. If you do no marketing then you get forty thousand customers and can't recover your R&D. If you spend $100M on marketing then you get two hundred thousand customers and more than recover both your R&D and your marketing expense.

Spending more on marketing can allow them to do R&D they otherwise couldn't by providing more customers to spread the R&D costs over.

Re: The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

#18

Here’s the rub with developing something as important as a medicine. If it works, people often _need_ it to prolong their life or improve their health. What drug companies are selling... isn’t like what other companies are selling. We ought not look at it through our normal understanding of goods in a free market. Take, for example, Sovaldi, a drug which cures Hepatits C. After discovering this drug and confirming it…

https://endpts.com/pharmas-broken-business-model-an-industry...

Re: The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

#19
Crazy idea: all pharmaceutical research should be publicly funded and publicly-owned. No private ownership of drug patents, period.

"But this will disincentive research!" Maybe. Or, tax people more in order to fund the research. The tax revenue would go directly to researcher salary, equipment, expenses. Even a large tax increase can't be worse than today, where people have to pay huge $$$ anyway, of which a large cut goes to executives, shareholders, the marketing machine, etc.

I believe by and large, people that go into pharma research do it because they're interested in the science and the cause, not because of any privatized profit motivation. Which is to say, people will still go to grad school in the same fields and continue carrying on the research work (so long as the facilities and equipment is available, which we can solve). The downside is that many senior executives would be displaced or be forced to accept lower compensation.

Someday in the distant future, people will look back and be as shocked that private companies profited from medicine, as we're shocked today about the for-profit firefighters in ancient Rome.

Re: The Best Fix for American Drug Prices Is Already on the Books

#20
post #4

One of the biggest reasons is that the US essentially subsidizes drugs for many other countries, such as Canada, that impose price controls, and threaten to allow other manufacturers to provide the drugs in their countries if the companies don't accept the imposed price. This enables these countries to get access to new medicine without paying the cost of developing the new medicine. Its time to end the trade war on…

This argument always strikes me as kind of odd. As far as I can tell, it boils down to "other countries like Canada are better negotiators than us, and our companies give them better prices."

But if that's the case, it just seems like really good evidence that squeezing drug companies and making aggressive demands drives down drug costs and encourages them to move R&D costs out of the country. Why wouldn't the US be all over that?

I dunno, I just always feel like I'm missing something when I see this. Other countries have better health care than us, but we can't use their tactics, even though they seem to be working really well, because... we're nice, and we don't want their drugs to cost more?

If we accept that having R&D based out of the US is a bad thing, then why are we fighting to keep it here? Shouldn't we increase regulation until all the pharmaceuticals move to Canada?

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