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Why the Luddites Matter

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Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#81

Post by Borealid »

gaius wrote: post #70
pdimitar wrote: post #51

> you do not have to let a tech company screaming “technological progress” in your face turn you into a paragon of passivity This was the article's highlight for me. As a senior programmer I found myself saying "no" to more and more tech nowadays -- smart speakers are and will always be not welcome in my house, I carefully study mobile app permissions and deny everything but the absolutely necessary minimum (on my mo…

I am never gonna give WiFi access to my TV. Ditto. My so-called "smart" TV gets HDMI inputs and that's it. An external device connects to the Internet for Netflix etc and if that device ever displeases me or becomes truly obsolete, it can be swapped out for another. But it is extremely difficult to buy a non-smart-TV above a certain size these days. All I wanted was a high quality screen and some inputs - I don't bel…

By the way, HDMI supports an Ethernet channel. Depeding on your setup, it may be possible for the TV to get online without a Wifi password or any cables other than power+HDMI.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#82

Post by TeMPOraL »

crazydoggers wrote: post #42
oliv__ wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you are unintentionally making the very point of this article: the Luddites weren't simply "entitled" to their craft, they were entitled to their ability to feed their children and exist in their society. Which I think every human being is very much entitled to. Furthermore, the article specifically insists that they weren't against all technology but instead this particular technology and its use and imp…

Your entitled to feed your children... but your not entitled to force the rest of us to support your way of life to do so. The rest of us need to respond to the times and adapt. No one gets to say my job should always exist. Unless ever person can have the same guarantee, then crafts people and coal miners need to adapt like the rest of us.

What about your responsibility to care for me and my children after, through no fault of my own, you completely destroyed my sources of income? Did all my work, now obsoleted, not contribute to society's wealth and progress?

I have a similar view here to what Scott Alexander explained in[0]. Humans were here first, society came later. To quote,

"Society got where it is by systematically destroying everything that could have supported him and replacing it with things that required skills he didn’t have. Of course it owes him when he suddenly can’t support himself. Think of it as the ultimate use of eminent domain; a power beyond your control has seized everything in the world, it had some good economic reasons for doing so, but it at least owes you compensation!"

I'm very much a fan of progress of technology. But I want this progress to be for the good of all of us. Part of that is considering how that progress is affecting people and mitigating the negatives. Anything less is IMO complete lack of empathy.

--

[0] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/burdens/ - trigger warning: mentions of mental health and suicide. But the conclusion is 100% transplantable to this topic, and the author acknowledged that in the text too.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#83

Post by TeMPOraL »

wiz21c wrote: post #21
jpttsn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The captialists had a very rational (if self-interested) reason to dislike the luddites. They just viewed straw men as an effective tactic.

>> rational when it's about people, "rational" is the last thing we need. Empathy, sympathy, compassion is what you need.

Rationality is mostly orthogonal to empathy, sympathy and compassion. Think of it this way: empathy, sympathy, and compassion are inputs. Rationality is the reasoning process. If you're rational but don't have those three inputs, you'll end up as a highly-functional sociopath. If you do have those three inputs but don't think rationally, you'll make a lot of wrong decisions that hurt people you're trying to help.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#84

Post by rijoja »

twblalock wrote: post #13
simula67 wrote: post #4

> Frankly, the Luddites wanted to be able to feed their children, they didn’t want to be driven into poverty, and they thought those things were more important than the factory owners becoming wealthier and more powerful The effect of industrial revolution was not just factory owners being wealthier or more powerful. It raised the workers wages and increased living standards for everyone

This is an oversimplifying response to an article that brings some nuance into history of the period. Understanding history is not just about passing verdicts on the outcomes with the benefit of hindsight. It's about understanding the process of change, why it happened, and how people living at the time viewed the changes and reacted to them. An article like this sheds light on a lot of those topics, including people…

Which misconceptions? I read up until he even pulled the racism card and learned exactly nothing. Obviously they didn't destroy all technology a feat which would require a lot of technology.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#85

Post by lmns »

Borealid wrote: post #81
gaius wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am never gonna give WiFi access to my TV. Ditto. My so-called "smart" TV gets HDMI inputs and that's it. An external device connects to the Internet for Netflix etc and if that device ever displeases me or becomes truly obsolete, it can be swapped out for another. But it is extremely difficult to buy a non-smart-TV above a certain size these days. All I wanted was a high quality screen and some inputs - I don't bel…

By the way, HDMI supports an Ethernet channel. Depeding on your setup, it may be possible for the TV to get online without a Wifi password or any cables other than power+HDMI.

This happened to a friend with a Samsung TV. One of his devices relayed Ethernet via HDMI to the Samsung and suddenly it started a firmware upgrade.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#86

Post by lmns »

pdimitar wrote: post #51

> you do not have to let a tech company screaming “technological progress” in your face turn you into a paragon of passivity This was the article's highlight for me. As a senior programmer I found myself saying "no" to more and more tech nowadays -- smart speakers are and will always be not welcome in my house, I carefully study mobile app permissions and deny everything but the absolutely necessary minimum (on my mo…

If your access point doesn't advertise your SSID, your clients will. It's a bit counterintuitive, but in practice hiding your SSID does the opposite of what it says.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#87

Post by knorker »

The term is overused, yes. But sometimes it's correct.

The taxi industry (especially black cabs in London) fits everything in this article, in my opinion. People who "just want to feed their children" trying to force democracy and capitalism to purchase a product (their skill, called "the knowledge") that has become obsolete, a product nobody needs anymore.

You have a skill. I'm sorry, that skill is no longer required in the world of 2018 for many years. Your job can now actually be done by anyone, and that is why you're getting competition. It's as if everyone with a liberal art's degree would demand to become a famous artist.

(a difference being of course that London black cabs are hugely corrupt, as seen by blatant disregard for payment rules, tax law, traffic rules and the fact that they fairly successfully make TFL act against the interests of everyone-who-is-not-a-black-cab-driver, which is most people)

rant over

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#88

Post by indogooner »

My takeaway : "You probably want to be able to feed your children (if you have any), you probably don’t want to be driven into poverty, and you probably feel that your economic security is at least as important as your boss’s ability to buy a new vacation home"

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#89

Post by emodendroket »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #80
gaius wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am never gonna give WiFi access to my TV. Ditto. My so-called "smart" TV gets HDMI inputs and that's it. An external device connects to the Internet for Netflix etc and if that device ever displeases me or becomes truly obsolete, it can be swapped out for another. But it is extremely difficult to buy a non-smart-TV above a certain size these days. All I wanted was a high quality screen and some inputs - I don't bel…

I'm not even convinced of the usefulness of extremely large screens. You end up having to sit progressively further away from them the bigger they are, which probably requires progressively larger rooms to put the TV in.

Pretty good if you like to watch movies with friends.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#90

Post by emodendroket »

gaius wrote: post #71
FrozenVoid wrote: post #67

Luddites are just people disempowered by automation and capitalism: if its cheaper to use machines than people, automation makes people effectively jobless - and if automation touches multiple sectors of economy it multiplies the effect by squeezing out people from multiple sides, reducing the labor demand significantly. If there are no alternative sources of income(welfare, UBI) that correct this, expect many more "…

more "Neo-Luddites" to emerge; specifically in areas targeted for automation The difference being that the automation you want to smash is actually thousands of miles away in China; there are no local factories anymore for the neo-Luddites to target.

The automated trucks and cash registers his post refers to cannot be "thousands of miles away in China" and serve their intended purpose.
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