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Interviews vs. auditions

ryanholiday.net

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Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment but almost no other profession does this. Could you imagine a Surgeon being forced to "Audition" for his job? "Here perform heart surgery on this guy for us, if he lives you get the job."

> I agree with the sentiment but almost no other profession does this Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. Our profession is much more similar to actors and musicians than it is to doctors or lawyers. You also have to factor in practicality and gatekeeping (for lack of a better word) - it's not very practical for a doctor to perform mock surgery for an interview, whereas it's very feasible asking some…

>Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this.

This is only true for a very small subset of creative professions.

Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience. That's their job--they are performance artists. Asking them to perform in front of you is very similar to what they'll actually be doing day to day. A much better analogue is a creative profession that doesn't involve performance art.

Interviewing an illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect generally involves looking through a past portfolio of work with the interviewee. In general they aren't expected to perform on the spot in front of an audience because that's not part of their job.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#92
post #60

as an engine mechanic, is this sort of game play normal in office jobs? When I've been taken on as an apprentice, its an interview to see my competency...where i stand i guess and what i need to learn. Questions like 'whats the hardest thing' and 'how do you handle grumpy people' are pretty normal. Being hired on full-time, and having to hire another mechanic myself, The questions are pretty cut and dry. Can you stic…

For some reason people are deathly afraid of hiring the wrong person. So afraid that they'd rather pass on 100 good candidates to avoid hiring one person who doesn't fit.

It's particularly bad for programming jobs where they expect candidates to go through up to a half dozen separate interviews. The whole process is just completely broken.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#93
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree with the sentiment but almost no other profession does this Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. Our profession is much more similar to actors and musicians than it is to doctors or lawyers. You also have to factor in practicality and gatekeeping (for lack of a better word) - it's not very practical for a doctor to perform mock surgery for an interview, whereas it's very feasible asking some…

>Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. This is only true for a very small subset of creative professions. Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience. That's their job--they are performance artists . Asking them to perform in front of you is very similar to what they'll actually be doing day to day. A much better analogue is a creative profession that doesn't involve performance art. Interview…

> Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience

Some actors/musicians. Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions (unless you're an A-list actor, but I'm sure most software companies would hire John Carmack without an "audition" so we likewise do the equivalent). But more importantly I think you missed my point, in that the audition for these professions are under very different conditions than what you'll actually be doing "on the job" (one of the bigger complaints with whiteboarding seems to be that it doesn't closely mirror the actual work).

> Interviewing an illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect generally involves looking through a past portfolio of work with the interviewee

That'd be fine if the point of the technical interview was to determine they know how to write code, but it's not IMO. As I mentioned above it's to determine they're capable of problem solving, because that is the important part of what we do (you should also obviously make sure a candidate knows how to code before you hire them, but that's the point of the phone screen).

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#94
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Almost no other creative profession doesn't do this. This is only true for a very small subset of creative professions. Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience. That's their job--they are performance artists . Asking them to perform in front of you is very similar to what they'll actually be doing day to day. A much better analogue is a creative profession that doesn't involve performance art. Interview…

> Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience Some actors/musicians. Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions (unless you're an A-list actor, but I'm sure most software companies would hire John Carmack without an "audition" so we likewise do the equiv…

>Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions

This is only true for an extremely limited definition of audience.

Movie actors most certainly perform in front of an audience. There are hundreds of people on the set. Even a small indie film has a few dozen people on set. It's the same for TV actors.

Studio musicians also have plenty of people watching over their shoulders while they perform, and they're expected to be able to do so on the spot without preparation.

>As I mentioned above it's to determine they're capable of problem solving, because that is the important part of what we do

That's the important part of nearly everyone's job. Architects, graphic designers, engineers, sales people, mechanics, plumbers.

There's nothing special about programming in this regard. We've just convinced ourselves that our industry is so special that of course we need weird hazing rituals. Everyone else seems to get along fine without treating people from new college grads to programmers with 20 years of experience like this is their first job.

Can you solve this artificial problem that I already know the answer to right now in this time boxed, needlessly adversarial situation situation while I watch over your shoulder and critique you?

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#95
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actors and musicians perform in front of an audience Some actors/musicians. Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions (unless you're an A-list actor, but I'm sure most software companies would hire John Carmack without an "audition" so we likewise do the equiv…

>Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions This is only true for an extremely limited definition of audience. Movie actors most certainly perform in front of an audience. There are hundreds of people on the set. Even a small indie film has a few dozen people on…

It's a bit odd you responded to various parts of my comment but not the "But more importantly I think you missed my point..." portion (i.e. kind of silly for us to debate this audience straw man)

> That's the important part of nearly everyone's job. Architects, graphic designers, engineers, sales people, mechanics, plumbers.

Communication, like problem solving, is likewise an important part of nearly everyone's job, but the importance of good communication skills (as valuable as they are) are much less important to being a good software engineer or good plumber than they are to being a good reporter or trial lawyer or public relations professional.

I'm guessing, like most developers, this is your first/only profession - but it's not mine (I switched careers in my early 30s), and I can assure you not every job requires the level of problem solving we deal with on a regular basis (and no, that doesn't make us "so special", not all jobs are identical, some have more or less value in different areas, but one is not more special than another because of the importance of problem solving or communication or empathy or creativity or anything else).

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, if you attempt this at a standard FAANG job interview, it is emphatically not going to work. Agreed, do you know why? They're looking for yes men. (Ok, maybe not the A later in the alphabet - not sure today) Now if you meet someone "higher up the chain" outside of a formal setting, this might work.

> They're looking for yes men. Or maybe they hire thousands each year and want to ensure some consistency in the candidate selection criteria. This could result in hiring more yes-men, but the _intention_ may be different.

I would die a thousand deaths working in a company like that. How can you possibly build your resume if everything on starts off with, "I worked on a team that did X?" at a small company you can say "I did X, Y, Z".

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Not all engineers take interviewing seriously, and even fewer actually want to be doing it in the moment. It can be seen as a too-frequent interruption that drags down productivity. This creates pressure to put interviewers in rotation who are not ready (so that more senior people can do their actual jobs) and can lead to a bad time when an otherwise-good interviewer betrays his annoyance at having you appear on…

That always struck me as odd given Americas litigious nature. I worked for a big UK company in the past and you had to pass a 2 or 3 day residential course before you where allowed to interview anyone.

Aside from discriminating on protected characteristics, white-collar employment decisions are not really subject to judicial review.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#98
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Movie actors never perform in front of an audience, TV actors usually don't perform in front of an audience, studio musicians rarely perform in front of an audience - these professions have auditions This is only true for an extremely limited definition of audience. Movie actors most certainly perform in front of an audience. There are hundreds of people on the set. Even a small indie film has a few dozen people on…

It's a bit odd you responded to various parts of my comment but not the "But more importantly I think you missed my point..." portion (i.e. kind of silly for us to debate this audience straw man) > That's the important part of nearly everyone's job. Architects, graphic designers, engineers, sales people, mechanics, plumbers. Communication, like problem solving, is likewise an important part of nearly everyone's job,…

>It's a bit odd you responded to various parts of my comment but not the "But more importantly I think you missed my point..." portion (i.e. kind of silly for us to debate this audience straw man)

Your argument was that almost all creative professions have auditions similar to whiteboard interviews. I pointed out that that's not true because it's only true for performance artists. You then took the discussion off topic by arguing that movie stars aren't performing in front of audiences.

Actors are expected to perform in front of an audience, programmers aren't. The ability to perform in front of an audience is difficult and rare, and is completely orthogonal to the skills required to work day to day as a programmer. Whiteboard interviews are just too far removed from anything resembling actual programming to be a work sample test. At best you're administering an ad hoc IQ test, but then you're adding an adversarial public performance aspect for no good reason. That adversarial public performance aspect is the biggest single difference between whiteboard interviews and real programming work--it's a much bigger difference than the difference between acting auditions and acting day to day.

>I'm guessing, like most developers, this is your first/only profession

I also switched careers after years in another field.

> not every job requires the level of problem solving we deal with on a regular basis

This is true. But having worked on the embedded systems side of hardware, there are many professions that do require at least the level of problem solving that programming does.

EEs (the majority of whom don't have any kind of certification unless they're working in power systems), computer engineers, and even embedded developers don't routinely go through the kinds of whiteboard problem solving tests that you're talking about. Engineers working on real time, safety critical systems are hired every day without a Google style 6 person interview interview.

The key differences are that these companies aren't trying to cargo cult the Google interview process, they don't have engineers a year or two out of college conducting the interviews, and they aren't paralyzed by the fear of unqualified candidates slipping through.

I spend a lot of time on (capital E) Engineering forums. You don't see people on those forums complaining about the industry standard interview. You don't see flame wars started every time someone even mentions interviews. I've never heard of an EE with 20 years experience being asked to solve pet problems by a 22 year old new grad. And I've never heard of an EE spending months practicing for an interview.

Clearly our interview process is broken. Perhaps it's time to look at similar industries and spend some time trying to figure out if we are really so different instead of insisting that programming is so uniquely challenging that it requires such a controversial interview process.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you want to avoid challenges in life and just get a job so you can retire 50 years later with nothing remarkable in between, that strategy works. Despite all of the hyperbole in tech, that's what most of us are doing. We work to provide for our family and if we get hit by a bus tomorrow, the company we work for will put out a req for an open job position and life goes on. It doesn't matter whether you are the jan…

And on the scale of millennia, nobody has any lasting impact. The only lasting impact we all have is our DNA.

And what value is there in our individual snowflake DNA?

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That always struck me as odd given Americas litigious nature. I worked for a big UK company in the past and you had to pass a 2 or 3 day residential course before you where allowed to interview anyone.

Aside from discriminating on protected characteristics, white-collar employment decisions are not really subject to judicial review.

They are in labour courts (assuming the USA) and at Tribunals in the UK - and a mistake in procedure is an automatic loss for employer side.
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