Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always) • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#131

Post by simion314 » Sat, May 12, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #95

simion314 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I pirate your software, or use your patents,trademarks, copyrights then the companies,startups will appeal to government to put me in place instead of appealing to free market. So maybe some rules,laws are needed, just that the ones you do not agree are bad and the ones you agree with are essential. Didn't you hear in school a story where some guys went to live in a forest and they agreed to have no rules, then so…

If I pirate your software, or use your patents,trademarks, copyrights then the companies,startups will appeal to government to put me in place instead of appealing to free market. Depends on the jurisdiction of your his company and yours. It might well happen that Asian companies are stealing our technologies and we let them do that, and let our fellow citizens buy their cheap products. It's all about voluntarily exc…

My point was addressed in special for business type people, startups people, they complain that regulation affects their ability to innovate so government is bad but on the other hand the government should do even more to protect them from pirates or China or emigrants. Same person wants 2 contradictory things but there is always a rationalization.

The free market has it's benefits but you always need some regulation so it stays free and balanced, otherwise you can get in a not that free market situation (and you can't always blame the government because of missing competition)

So have a free market, but keep the eye out, if an monopoly appears break it, if FB tries to buy a small competitor, don't allow it, if company X is playing by the laws but it does damage to the society you change the law so the damage stops.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#132

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sat, May 12, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #90

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countless cities and towns where there is only one ISP, or a duopoly in cahoots to keep prices high and service low, and freezing competitors such as Google Fiber out of the market. This isn't exactly new information, if you haven't noticed the problem by now, you must have been living under a rock. There are hundreds of credible reports and articles about this problem.

More deregulation would provide the threat of having more competition later, so it would be a factor of development. There are others factors at play too of course, and net neutrality doesn't seem to be going in the right direction.

It makes absolutely no sense to build multiple redundant last mile feeds. It doesn't make sense for water, it doesn't make sense for electricity, it doesn't make sense for sewers and it doesn't make sense for internet connections.

ISPs that own the last mile connections obviously don't want to share infrastructure with their competitors, because that would break their de facto monopolies. The only sensible solution is to regulate them into selling access to competitors.

It has worked extremely well here, fostering genuine competition, based on pricing and features, not just simple access.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#133

Post by ZenoArrow » Sat, May 12, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

forapurpose wrote: post #41

earenndil wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would not the 'independent hacker culture' be to found its own, independent ISP?

That sounds a bit challenging: They'd still need to pay the corporate ISPs to carry or to not completely deprioritize traffic from hackerISP, or else nobody else could reach the hackers' great websites, services, ideas, etc. If hackerISP carried things the corporates didn't like, they could still throttle or kill access to it or to individual domains, protocols, etc. And how will hackerISP pay for nationwide infrastr…

> "And how will hackerISP pay for nationwide infrastructure?"

Depending on where you live, ISPs do not need to own their own infrastructure. For a bit more information into how this can work, I'd recommend taking a look at local loop unbundling:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local-loop_unbundling

Also, GP is alluding to things that have already happened in the past, in the wild west days of the Internet it was more common for small ISPs to get started (even with competition from the big ISPs like AOL and CompuServe).

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#134

Post by daleharvey » Sat, May 12, 2018, 3:55 PM UTC

tokyodude wrote: post #109

this is tangentially related but what are mozilla's plans for autoplay in Firefox? Chrome just effectively broke net neutrality in Chrome by whitelisting a bunch of websites. They claim chrome will learn your preferences and auto-magically whitelist others sites you run videos on but that hardly seems fair. Why did the other sites not have to pass that hurdle? Worse, it only works if you're logged in where as whiteli…

I am one of a few people currently working on this feature and while a whitelist was on the table, very much trying to push against it, especially after seeing the reaction to chromes implementation landing.

I think comparisons to net neutrality are fair, I have made the same argument however it is worth mentioning it isnt equivalent, obviously we wouldnt be crippling peoples experience unless they paid us money

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#135

Post by fouric » Sat, May 12, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #71

drdaeman wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My ISP It was said a few gajillion times, but let me repeat it once again. Here is the real problem: it's singular. My ISP works reasonably well for me, because I have at least 5 other non-wireless options whom I can pay if I'm not satisfied. It is this simple, and I've heard that it works not only where I've lived but in other cities and countries as well. And if all my options collude, then there is government to…

Absolutely this. Competition is the best regulation there is because it responds directly to the customer.

Competition is only the best regulation if the majority of the customers both know and care about correcting for the issues that regulation would usually cover, which is not true here (a maximum of 16 million legitimate comments were filed by the public on the FCC's decision, less than 10% of the 280 million or so internet users in the US), and so your comment is irrelevant, even ignoring the government-enforced regional monopolies that many ISPs have as a result of buying off local politicians.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#136

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sat, May 12, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #117

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, how exactly do you have access to a lot of different ISPs? 1. There are a lot of competing networks in the ground. Like, there are five cables reaching your house owned by five different ISPs that you can choose from. 2. There is one cable reaching your house, but the owner doesn't care too much about making money themselves, so they allow competitors to use it at a price where they can compete with the owner. 3.…

Don't know, sorry

I'll help you, it's #3.

(I work at a former state monopoly telco/ISP, specifically with wholesale business, where we sell other service providers access to our networks, as mandated by government regulation)

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#137

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sat, May 12, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #81

devnonymous wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you are intentionally trolling but I'll bite. Independent hacker culture is the exact thing at risk here without government intervention. Else, you'll end up with the fragmented Verizon hacker culture and the Comcast hacker culture and the... Goddess forbid Google / Facebook / Amazon hacker culture, each with its own non-independent thought. As an aside, Why are regulations that prevent bad actors fro…

Because regulations that “prevent” bad actors actually have unintended consequences that the big-government people never seem to grasp. And free markets are far more powerful and adapt far more quickly than regulation — while preserving freedom for people to make their own choices. Certain European governments in the past century made regulations to “protect” society — and that resulted in millions of people killed o…

>"free markets are far more powerful and adapt far more quickly than regulation — while preserving freedom for people to make their own choices."

That is absolute nonsense, especially for last-mile services, such as electricity, water, sewage, cable and internet.

Nobody is going to dig redundant infrastructure, because the entrenched monopoly will simply freeze out any new competitors. It even happened to Google Fiber, despite their gigantic moneybags and public support.

There is no choice when an entrenched monopoly can eliminate all competitors, thanks to the monopoly position.

Free markets are not the solution to every problem, or even to most problems.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#138

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sat, May 12, 2018, 4:26 PM UTC

ghba66 wrote: post #124

Jonnax wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are just virtue signalling. They've filed court cases against the FCC. They're activly trying to change legislation. If that's virtue signalling then it's a stupid phrase that means nothing. >I am from a country in the EU. I don't support NN because I want to have access to zero-rated services. As a consumer, they make my life easier and my bill lower. I want to have the freedom of choosing whether I want NN in…

>They've filed court cases against the FCC. They're activly trying to change legislation. Of course... they have to spend the donations on something. Anything but improving Firefox or Thunderbird, lol >An ISP zero rating facebook, Netflix or Spotify just entrenches a big player in their dominant position. No because in the EU by legislation ISPs are forced to zero-rate all services in the same category. If they zero-…

>"No because in the EU by legislation ISPs are forced to zero-rate all services in the same category. If they zero-rate Netflix they have to zero-rate YouTube and everything in between."

Which is government regulation, which you claim to be against.

Why not just enforce neutrality, eliminate the silliness that is zero rating, and offer reasonable data allowances instead?

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#139

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Sat, May 12, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

ghba66 wrote: post #106

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do understand that ISPs do implement zero-rated service because it makes them money, right? Who do you think this money comes from if it's not from you? Who is the nice person who decided they wanted to subsidize your internet connection? If you think that zero-rated services save you money, all that is happening is that you don't understand how you pay for it. So, maybe it is time to find out how you do pay for…

>Who do you think this money comes from if it's not from you? The zero-rated services themselves.

Well, sure, but that doesn't really answer the question. Where does the zero-rated service take the money from if it's not from you?

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#140

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Sat, May 12, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

ghba66 wrote: post #79

Jonnax wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company is free to align themselves with any goal they wish to have. They see that their strategy aligns with the majority of their users and the user's they wish to attract. You have the freedom to not use their product if you don't align with them. If you're not from the US what country are you from that would have a benefit from eliminating net neutrality? What are your reasons for not supporting it? The argumen…

>A company is free to align themselves with any goal they wish to have. They see that their strategy aligns with the majority of their users and the user's they wish to attract. You have the freedom to not use their product if you don't align with them. They are just virtue signalling. >If you're not from the US what country are you from that would have a benefit from eliminating net neutrality? What are your reasons…

> I want to have the freedom of choosing whether I want NN in my connection or not.

Great, I would be fine with that. So, how do we ensure then that I have the option of choosing NN for my connection?