Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always) • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#71

Post by briandear » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:08 AM UTC

drdaeman wrote: post #57

craftyguy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ISP is capable of denying services to me, its customer, based on principle (e.g. it conflicts with their business model). Ergo, they regulate what I can/cannot do. Without government regulation to say "bad ISP, bad", they can regulate my ability to access services and charge me more to slowly peel back that regulation. In case you are still confused, here's the definition of 'regulation': > to control or direct by…

> My ISP It was said a few gajillion times, but let me repeat it once again. Here is the real problem: it's singular. My ISP works reasonably well for me, because I have at least 5 other non-wireless options whom I can pay if I'm not satisfied. It is this simple, and I've heard that it works not only where I've lived but in other cities and countries as well. And if all my options collude, then there is government to…

Absolutely this. Competition is the best regulation there is because it responds directly to the customer.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#72

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:17 AM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #64

not_kurt_godel wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard for me to imagine this comment having been made in good faith. Do you have any credible affirmative proposal/suggestion to preserve the essential qualities of the Internet that government-mandated net neutrality achieves, or are you being willfully ignorant and myopic? When "independent hacker culture" finds a way to fund an 'independent' alternative national/global Internet infrastructure to the tune of hu…

Do you have any credible affirmative proposal/suggestion Freer markets

Isn't that always the parroted "solution"?

The current free market situation has created monopolies in many areas. How would you propose that "freer markets" would solve this?

What we are seeing now is that people literally have to build their own non-profit mesh networks (as in NYC), just to get around the monopolies. If there was actual competition, that would have been necessary.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#73

Post by briandear » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:20 AM UTC

shirakawasuna wrote: post #37

eurleif wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to me, its customer. Your ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to you, its customer. No ISP is capable of mandating behavior from third parties who haven't chosen to engage in an economic exchange with it, meaning that no ISP is capable of regulation.

When there are basically two ISPs in most municipalities, there is no independent third party. And this is before we get to what happens when people start inserting these ideas into peering a la the money grab on Netflix. The ISPs can filter what you request and host, simple as that. And if you want to start a business, better hope it doesn't compete with any of the ISP parent company's holdings, because they have ev…

Any proof this is happening now? Is there any proof that services aren’t actually getting better now? Or does the NN crowd feel like FUD is warranted?

I’m just waiting for all of the dystopian horror we’ve been promised, but still not seeing it. When are the ISPs going to start charging small websites to allow their traffic? When has legitimate traffic been throttled because of the content? Citations and examples needed — and post-NN examples are all that count.

Any proof at all that someone making the next Netflix is getting harmed? Because NN is already gone. So where is all of this horrible stuff happening. We were promised an internet catastrophe and it hasn’t happened yet. And before NN— what happened then? That was when the actual Netflix was getting started and somehow Netflix was able to be born without NN.

But prices seem to be going down.

Stop spreading FUD. It isn’t happening. Things are getting better in fact. Markets are more powerful than governments.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#74

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:21 AM UTC

tinalumfoil wrote: post #20

sp332 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not enough independent hacker spirit to cover the whole country in decent internet. The big ISPs depend on government-enforced franchise agreements and all the public money they can get to eliminate competition. That said, hackers are citizens too, and we can at least fight for protections from the ISPs that exist.

You can't separate NN from being government control of the internet. Even if the government made some bad deals with ISPs isn't really relevant. And you can try to do mental gymnastics to get around it, but what NN supporters basically say is, "the companies that provide our access the internet can't be trusted to act in the best interest of the consumer, so we need the government to tell them how to do their job". A…

>"the government is now more trustworthy than tech companies in protecting people's use of the internet."

Yes, it absolutely is! Just like other basic utilities, such as water, power and sewers. I wouldn't trust private companies with those services, either.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#75

Post by ttoinou » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:27 AM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #72

ttoinou wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any credible affirmative proposal/suggestion Freer markets

Isn't that always the parroted "solution"? The current free market situation has created monopolies in many areas. How would you propose that "freer markets" would solve this? What we are seeing now is that people literally have to build their own non-profit mesh networks (as in NYC), just to get around the monopolies. If there was actual competition, that would have been necessary.

   The current free market situation has created monopolies in many areas

Such as ?

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#76

Post by ghba66 » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:28 AM UTC

Mononokay wrote: post #36

ghba66 wrote: post #2

I don't know why Mozilla thinks it's okay to politically align themselves. Shouldn't they stay neutral if they want to make a browser for everybody and all of that? Reminds me of the Tor project calling themselves a "human rights project"

> Reminds me of the Tor project calling themselves a "human rights project" It fundamentally is a human rights project.

It was a technical project with the goal of proxifying your stuff via the onion network. They made it about human rights. Accessing forbidden websites is just one of all the things you could ever use Tor for. You could also use it to buy drugs or hire a hitman or troll online or watch child pornography. Why not call it a "hitmen for everybody" project?

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#77

Post by ttoinou » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:28 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #68

ttoinou wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an age where many don't have a second choice for an ISP Where ? You have trouble in the US about that but in Europe we have plenty of competition

Please stop saying “Europe has plenty of competition.” I am in France and have exactly 1 ISP where I live. Not everyone in Europe is in a big city. And even in big cities, not every ISP is available at your house even though they advertise that they are in the area.

I'm in France countryside too and we have a lot of different ISP

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#78

Post by ttoinou » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:30 AM UTC

not_kurt_godel wrote: post #69

ttoinou wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any credible affirmative proposal/suggestion Freer markets

How specifically are freer markets going to solve the problem? Free markets only work when there's competition. Seeing as nobody can replicate the essential physical infrastructure that ISPs/telecoms own, not even investors with billions upon billions of dollars (see: Google Fiber), I fail to see how your glib answer of "freer markets" is at all credible.

  Free markets only work when there's competition.

A powerful (oligopolistic) corporation can set low prices / reduce margins in order to prevent other potential companies to enter into the market. And they are also pushed to innovate

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#79

Post by ghba66 » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:31 AM UTC

Jonnax wrote: post #52

ghba66 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not from the US so I don't know if it's a partisan issue, but I don't agree with NN, so them implying everybody agrees on that because it's the common good is completely bonkers.

A company is free to align themselves with any goal they wish to have. They see that their strategy aligns with the majority of their users and the user's they wish to attract. You have the freedom to not use their product if you don't align with them. If you're not from the US what country are you from that would have a benefit from eliminating net neutrality? What are your reasons for not supporting it? The argumen…

>A company is free to align themselves with any goal they wish to have. They see that their strategy aligns with the majority of their users and the user's they wish to attract. You have the freedom to not use their product if you don't align with them.

They are just virtue signalling.

>If you're not from the US what country are you from that would have a benefit from eliminating net neutrality? What are your reasons for not supporting it?

I am from a country in the EU. I don't support NN because I want to have access to zero-rated services. As a consumer, they make my life easier and my bill lower. I want to have the freedom of choosing whether I want NN in my connection or not. I don't want the government to take that freedom away from me.

>Are you saying the only companies that can take a stance are ISPs? And they can lobby governments but an independent company cannot?

They surely can. I was just surprised because Mozilla pride themselves so much in diversity and the common good. I suppose their diversity does not include diversity of thought.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#80

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:33 AM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #75

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that always the parroted "solution"? The current free market situation has created monopolies in many areas. How would you propose that "freer markets" would solve this? What we are seeing now is that people literally have to build their own non-profit mesh networks (as in NYC), just to get around the monopolies. If there was actual competition, that would have been necessary.

The current free market situation has created monopolies in many areas Such as ?

Countless cities and towns where there is only one ISP, or a duopoly in cahoots to keep prices high and service low, and freezing competitors such as Google Fiber out of the market.

This isn't exactly new information, if you haven't noticed the problem by now, you must have been living under a rock.

There are hundreds of credible reports and articles about this problem.