Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always) • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#61

Post by AsyncAwait » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:45 AM UTC

dingo_bat wrote: post #51

marricks wrote: post #4

It's amazing how "politicized" net neutrality has become in the last 6 months. A year ago I couldn't find anyone honestly arguing to repeal it. Reddit, HN, everywhere I looked people (and companies) besides ISPs said repealing net neutrality was bad. In comes Trump and Ajit Pia, and suddenly there is another side, the "against government regulation". It's a talking point anyone who watches Fox News or reads the Wall…

> In comes Trump and Ajit Pia, and suddenly there is another side, the "against government regulation". Yup, how horrible that people actually want less regulation. Everyone should just agree with you and we'll all get along splendidly!

> Yup, how horrible that people actually want less regulation.

You want less government regulation, in favor of more corporate 'regulation'. That does indeed sound horrible to me.

It seems that some people just hear REGULATION and freak out, without realizing that they rely heavily on regulation every day to get safely to work and not have their house confiscated.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#62

Post by AsyncAwait » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:48 AM UTC

ghba66 wrote: post #2

I don't know why Mozilla thinks it's okay to politically align themselves. Shouldn't they stay neutral if they want to make a browser for everybody and all of that? Reminds me of the Tor project calling themselves a "human rights project"

> I don't know why Mozilla thinks it's okay to politically align themselves.

Being pro equal access to internet for every party is not politically aligning themselves anywhere else in the world, but in the U.S. where the right-wing has been successfully co-opted into thinking that every bit of regulation is a communist plot to take over Nebraska.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#63

Post by devnonymous » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:48 AM UTC

acheron wrote: post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

I don't know if you are intentionally trolling but I'll bite.

Independent hacker culture is the exact thing at risk here without government intervention. Else, you'll end up with the fragmented Verizon hacker culture and the Comcast hacker culture and the... Goddess forbid Google / Facebook / Amazon hacker culture, each with its own non-independent thought.

As an aside, Why are regulations that prevent bad actors from damaging society, thought of as unnecessary control in the US (see the other big ___ control issue)?

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#64

Post by ttoinou » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:50 AM UTC

not_kurt_godel wrote: post #53

acheron wrote: post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

It's hard for me to imagine this comment having been made in good faith. Do you have any credible affirmative proposal/suggestion to preserve the essential qualities of the Internet that government-mandated net neutrality achieves, or are you being willfully ignorant and myopic? When "independent hacker culture" finds a way to fund an 'independent' alternative national/global Internet infrastructure to the tune of hu…

   Do you have any credible affirmative proposal/suggestion

Freer markets

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#65

Post by ttoinou » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:52 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #21

acheron wrote: post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

It's almost like Mozilla tried the whole "no regulation" thing, only to find themselves crushed under the boot of an ultra rich competitor.

Then they need to find a better business model

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#66

Post by ttoinou » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:53 AM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #56

acheron wrote: post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

Capitalism only works because of regulation, otherwise you'd have a society resembling a dystopian novel. In the 90s, there were many small ISPs, who were themselves run by enthusiast, so net neutrality was sort of implicitly preserved. In an age where many don't have a second choice for an ISP, net neutrality seems like the only way to at least somewhat preserve an equal playing field on the internet. If you have a…

   In an age where many don't have a second choice for an ISP

Where ? You have trouble in the US about that but in Europe we have plenty of competition

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#67

Post by ttoinou » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:53 AM UTC

contravariant wrote: post #19

acheron wrote: post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

I suppose asking for laws to prevent people from controlling and regulating the internet is technically asking the government for more control and regulations, but that's a rather weird way of putting it.

What if those laws reinforce the power of bad corporations it was supposed to crush down ? Oops

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#68

Post by briandear » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:59 AM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #66

AsyncAwait wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism only works because of regulation, otherwise you'd have a society resembling a dystopian novel. In the 90s, there were many small ISPs, who were themselves run by enthusiast, so net neutrality was sort of implicitly preserved. In an age where many don't have a second choice for an ISP, net neutrality seems like the only way to at least somewhat preserve an equal playing field on the internet. If you have a…

In an age where many don't have a second choice for an ISP Where ? You have trouble in the US about that but in Europe we have plenty of competition

Please stop saying “Europe has plenty of competition.”

I am in France and have exactly 1 ISP where I live. Not everyone in Europe is in a big city. And even in big cities, not every ISP is available at your house even though they advertise that they are in the area.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#69

Post by not_kurt_godel » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:03 AM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #64

not_kurt_godel wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard for me to imagine this comment having been made in good faith. Do you have any credible affirmative proposal/suggestion to preserve the essential qualities of the Internet that government-mandated net neutrality achieves, or are you being willfully ignorant and myopic? When "independent hacker culture" finds a way to fund an 'independent' alternative national/global Internet infrastructure to the tune of hu…

Do you have any credible affirmative proposal/suggestion Freer markets

How specifically are freer markets going to solve the problem? Free markets only work when there's competition. Seeing as nobody can replicate the essential physical infrastructure that ISPs/telecoms own, not even investors with billions upon billions of dollars (see: Google Fiber), I fail to see how your glib answer of "freer markets" is at all credible.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#70

Post by briandear » Sat, May 12, 2018, 10:06 AM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #34

tinalumfoil wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't separate NN from being government control of the internet. Even if the government made some bad deals with ISPs isn't really relevant. And you can try to do mental gymnastics to get around it, but what NN supporters basically say is, "the companies that provide our access the internet can't be trusted to act in the best interest of the consumer, so we need the government to tell them how to do their job". A…

The internet has always been controlled by the government from day 1. And while you may wish to work toward a more independent net, wishing won't make it so overnight. We've go to do what we can with what we've got. Local governments make deals with ISPs to get coverage to a certain % of the population in exchange for exclusivity. Adding NN to the deal is just negotiating terms in an existing agreement. If we had a f…

> If we had a freeR market or some competition that might be a better way to get what we want, but we don't.

So why aren’t we fighting for that? My problem with NN is not the idea, but the pro-government politics of those so loudly supporting it. I trust free markets far more than I trust governments. If Nancy Pelosi or Maxine Waters were in charge of American internet — I find that pretty horrifying.