Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always) • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#51

Post by dingo_bat » Sat, May 12, 2018, 6:46 AM UTC

marricks wrote: post #4

It's amazing how "politicized" net neutrality has become in the last 6 months. A year ago I couldn't find anyone honestly arguing to repeal it. Reddit, HN, everywhere I looked people (and companies) besides ISPs said repealing net neutrality was bad. In comes Trump and Ajit Pia, and suddenly there is another side, the "against government regulation". It's a talking point anyone who watches Fox News or reads the Wall…

> In comes Trump and Ajit Pia, and suddenly there is another side, the "against government regulation".

Yup, how horrible that people actually want less regulation. Everyone should just agree with you and we'll all get along splendidly!

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#52

Post by Jonnax » Sat, May 12, 2018, 6:56 AM UTC

ghba66 wrote: post #16

colejohnson66 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you on companies aligning themselves, net neutrality isn’t a partisan issue. The only people who make it partisan are Congress

I am not from the US so I don't know if it's a partisan issue, but I don't agree with NN, so them implying everybody agrees on that because it's the common good is completely bonkers.

A company is free to align themselves with any goal they wish to have.

They see that their strategy aligns with the majority of their users and the user's they wish to attract.

You have the freedom to not use their product if you don't align with them.

If you're not from the US what country are you from that would have a benefit from eliminating net neutrality?

What are your reasons for not supporting it?

The argument is whether net neutrality is for the common good or not.

Are you saying the only companies that can take a stance are ISPs? And they can lobby governments but an independent company cannot?

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#53

Post by not_kurt_godel » Sat, May 12, 2018, 8:20 AM UTC

acheron wrote: post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

It's hard for me to imagine this comment having been made in good faith. Do you have any credible affirmative proposal/suggestion to preserve the essential qualities of the Internet that government-mandated net neutrality achieves, or are you being willfully ignorant and myopic? When "independent hacker culture" finds a way to fund an 'independent' alternative national/global Internet infrastructure to the tune of hundreds of billions (trillion(s)?) of dollars, please do let me know. (Perhaps you've forgotten or never realized that that the Usenet/Slashdot of old you so wistfully refer to would never have even existed without ARPANET, a government-funded project.)

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#54

Post by Fnoord » Sat, May 12, 2018, 8:59 AM UTC

eurleif wrote: post #25

craftyguy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well we have two choices: 1) government regulation, or 2) ISP regulation. We are on track for #2 thanks to ajit.

You're confused. ISPs aren't regulators. They're incapable of regulating anything.

Quality of Service (QoS) [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_service

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#55

Post by Fnoord » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

acheron wrote: post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

What I find amazing is that there are still people on this planet who oppose anything a government does, so they end up at the perils of corporations. I guess, according to you, GDPR is also a Bad Thing (tm)? Hint: it is a response to an industry which failed to regulate itself.

When corporations cannot manage themselves, the government must interact by rule of law. An example of that is the sale of frequencies such as 4G. Or the prohibition of usage of certain frequencies because the government uses them for military purposes. You may agree or disagree with some of these, but they serve a purpose which in the end can be deducted to being useful for the people (ie. the military, in the end, serves the purpose to protect the people).

If the government protects the interest of the [all] the people, equally, which they do in the case of net neutrality then the government uses its vast power to keep the corporations on a leash so that [all] the people can benefit. That is not anarchism, true, because the government uses its authority against very powerful monopolies/duopolies or other power vacuums with commercial interests. It is akin to the old GPL vs BSDL debate. And if you had that debate on Usenet or Slashdot there was no consensus precisely because there's the camp who believes in an authority and the anarchistic one.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#56

Post by AsyncAwait » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:09 AM UTC

acheron wrote: post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

Capitalism only works because of regulation, otherwise you'd have a society resembling a dystopian novel. In the 90s, there were many small ISPs, who were themselves run by enthusiast, so net neutrality was sort of implicitly preserved. In an age where many don't have a second choice for an ISP, net neutrality seems like the only way to at least somewhat preserve an equal playing field on the internet.

If you have a better solution, I want to hear it.

EDIT: Also, this whole U.S. right-leaning libertarian, (assumed based on your comment), thing of not wanting to involve the government in anything ever is so strange to me - you rely on them every day to enforce your property rights, ensure you have clean water in your tap etc. I understand that in many ways it can be very dysfunctional, but you have to evaluate on a case by case basis. Involvement in foreign military interventions, most would agree is pretty bad, firefighters are very good, so are roads etc.

Ultimately, if we accept that the government has a monopoly on the use of force, then we must also see that if something positive is to be destroyed by the 'free' market, then we must redirect that government monopoly to enforce that that doesn't happen.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#57

Post by drdaeman » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:11 AM UTC

craftyguy wrote: post #30

eurleif wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to me, its customer. Your ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to you, its customer. No ISP is capable of mandating behavior from third parties who haven't chosen to engage in an economic exchange with it, meaning that no ISP is capable of regulation.

My ISP is capable of denying services to me, its customer, based on principle (e.g. it conflicts with their business model). Ergo, they regulate what I can/cannot do. Without government regulation to say "bad ISP, bad", they can regulate my ability to access services and charge me more to slowly peel back that regulation. In case you are still confused, here's the definition of 'regulation': > to control or direct by…

> My ISP

It was said a few gajillion times, but let me repeat it once again. Here is the real problem: it's singular.

My ISP works reasonably well for me, because I have at least 5 other non-wireless options whom I can pay if I'm not satisfied.

It is this simple, and I've heard that it works not only where I've lived but in other cities and countries as well.

And if all my options collude, then there is government to call.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#58

Post by drdaeman » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:19 AM UTC

shirakawasuna wrote: post #37

eurleif wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to me, its customer. Your ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to you, its customer. No ISP is capable of mandating behavior from third parties who haven't chosen to engage in an economic exchange with it, meaning that no ISP is capable of regulation.

When there are basically two ISPs in most municipalities, there is no independent third party. And this is before we get to what happens when people start inserting these ideas into peering a la the money grab on Netflix. The ISPs can filter what you request and host, simple as that. And if you want to start a business, better hope it doesn't compete with any of the ISP parent company's holdings, because they have ev…

> The ISPs can filter what you request and host, simple as that.

Within the SLA.

It all depends on whenever you can be rejected as a customer or not, and whenever the offering must be public or each peer negotiates for their own terms, though.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#59

Post by StavrosK » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:32 AM UTC

dingo_bat wrote: post #51

marricks wrote: post #4

It's amazing how "politicized" net neutrality has become in the last 6 months. A year ago I couldn't find anyone honestly arguing to repeal it. Reddit, HN, everywhere I looked people (and companies) besides ISPs said repealing net neutrality was bad. In comes Trump and Ajit Pia, and suddenly there is another side, the "against government regulation". It's a talking point anyone who watches Fox News or reads the Wall…

> In comes Trump and Ajit Pia, and suddenly there is another side, the "against government regulation". Yup, how horrible that people actually want less regulation. Everyone should just agree with you and we'll all get along splendidly!

It truly is a terrible thing when people want "less regulation" without pausing to think whether the particular bit of regulation benefits them or not. "Regulation" has become a bogeyman you can invoke to reliably get people rallying against it.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#60

Post by boomboomsubban » Sat, May 12, 2018, 9:38 AM UTC

dingo_bat wrote: post #50

dilap wrote: post #9

Has Mozilla said anything about FOSTA or fought against it in any way? I feel like NN is basically just a diversion to deflect attention and energy from things that are actually restricting freedom on the internet.

If you want to understand Mozilla's actions, just treat them like a proxy for Google. Things google cannot publicly speak about, Mozilla does it for them. In this case, nn by design takes power away from infrastructure companies (ISPs) and gives it to internet services companies (google, facebook, etc.). So Mozilla is very actively supporting it.

In no way can Mozilla's actions be taken as a proxy for Google. Yes, most of their revenue comes from Google now, but this is a recent change and there's no reason to think that contract gave Google any control.

Next, Google has already voiced their support for net neutrality. They even have a real "proxy," the Internet Association, pledging to support lawsuits like the Mozilla one.

https://www.google.com/takeaction/action/net-neutrality/