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Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

blog.mozilla.org

21–30 of 180 posts

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#21
post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

It's almost like Mozilla tried the whole "no regulation" thing, only to find themselves crushed under the boot of an ultra rich competitor.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst thing that ever happened was liberals wrapping their arms around Net Neutrality and claiming it as “their” issue. This immediately caused a knee jerk reaction in conservatives who will oppose anything liberals will support and thus the coalition to repeal Net Neutrality was born and ultimately triumphed.

I think that's a very partisan way of looking at a complex issue. 'liberals wrapping their arms around net neutrality' is not why net neutrality is being repealed, and not why the coalition to repeal Net Neutrailty was created. You can look towards the significant amount of contributions to various politicians and individuals in government that have come from ISP's and see quite a clear picture of the source of NN be…

I just want to raise a couple of points.

It's not necessarily always true that corporate donations are simply to bribe politicians into doing their bidding (which is what I took away when I read your commend). Companies will give money to politicians who are already aligned with their interests.

I watched a video once which tried to address the idea that Ted Cruz was being bribed by Comcast. Once of the arguments put forward was, sure, he may have received donations from some Comcast employees. However we shouldn't conflate that to mean Comcast was paying him money. Other politicians like Hillary and Bernie also would have received donations from Comcast employees.

Also, opponents of Net Neutrality actually do make some good points against the role of government in regulating the internet. Here's a debate where Nick Gillespie (a libertarian) and Michael Katz argue against Mitchell Baker and Tom Wheeler on whether NN is good. By the end of the debate, Nick and Michael are able to convince more people to consider opposing NN than to support:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAJabAjoK08

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#23
post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

> independent hacker culture

Independent hackers need net neutrality; otherwise access to their innovations and startups will be limited, and their access to the Internet from which they get ideas, inspiration, and collaboration, will also be limited. I wonder how that spirit would survive if people only had access to major commercial websites. EDIT: Imagine the FOSS project with no budget to buy access, and any project that challenges the status quo (political, corporate, etc.) and is given no or minimal access. Where would hacker culture and the world be without those projects?

I agree that it's a loss that we have to turn to government, but it's better than no net neutrality at all. Net neutrality used to be accomplished by cooperation, good faith, and maybe even enlightened self-interest (something U.S. corporations often lack). But the stakes on the Internet are now in the trillions of dollars and (long ago) it has attracted the greedy and power-hungry, who are not going to cooperate and act in good faith. That's why democratic government exists, to give that power to ordinary citizens, distributed fairly via the vote. At least that's the theory in some places:

all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

> begging for the government to control and regulate

That would be, desiring all citizens to control and regulate via their representatives, rather than having a few powerful citizens make the decisions on their own.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#24
post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

Well we have two choices: 1) government regulation, or 2) ISP regulation. We are on track for #2 thanks to ajit.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#25
post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

Well we have two choices: 1) government regulation, or 2) ISP regulation. We are on track for #2 thanks to ajit.

You're confused. ISPs aren't regulators. They're incapable of regulating anything.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#26
post #6

I still find it amazing that everything has degraded from the independent hacker culture of the 90s to continually begging for the government to control and regulate the Internet. If you ever posted “what the Internet could really use is for the US Congress to control it!” to Usenet or 1999 Slashdot you would have gotten flamed to a crisp. I mean, God knows I’m not going to use a Google product, so I’m sticking with…

> independent hacker culture Independent hackers need net neutrality; otherwise access to their innovations and startups will be limited, and their access to the Internet from which they get ideas, inspiration, and collaboration, will also be limited. I wonder how that spirit would survive if people only had access to major commercial websites. EDIT: Imagine the FOSS project with no budget to buy access, and any proj…

Hackers don’t need anything, that’s the point. Hackers find a way.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#27
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well we have two choices: 1) government regulation, or 2) ISP regulation. We are on track for #2 thanks to ajit.

You're confused. ISPs aren't regulators. They're incapable of regulating anything.

They definitely are capable of regulating traffic to/from you, based on its content and source/destination, and charging you differently based on how much regulation you want to endure.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confused. ISPs aren't regulators. They're incapable of regulating anything.

They definitely are capable of regulating traffic to/from you, based on its content and source/destination, and charging you differently based on how much regulation you want to endure.

My ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to me, its customer. Your ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to you, its customer. No ISP is capable of mandating behavior from third parties who haven't chosen to engage in an economic exchange with it, meaning that no ISP is capable of regulation.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#29
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They definitely are capable of regulating traffic to/from you, based on its content and source/destination, and charging you differently based on how much regulation you want to endure.

My ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to me, its customer. Your ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to you, its customer. No ISP is capable of mandating behavior from third parties who haven't chosen to engage in an economic exchange with it, meaning that no ISP is capable of regulation.

My country is capable of determining the services it offers me, its citizen. Your country is capable of determining the services it offers to you, its citizen. No country is capable of mandating behavior from third parties who haven't chosen to engage in a citizenship relationship with it, meaning that no country is capable of regulation.

Re: Mozilla Fights for Net Neutrality This May (and Always)

#30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They definitely are capable of regulating traffic to/from you, based on its content and source/destination, and charging you differently based on how much regulation you want to endure.

My ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to me, its customer. Your ISP is capable of determining the services it offers to you, its customer. No ISP is capable of mandating behavior from third parties who haven't chosen to engage in an economic exchange with it, meaning that no ISP is capable of regulation.

My ISP is capable of denying services to me, its customer, based on principle (e.g. it conflicts with their business model). Ergo, they regulate what I can/cannot do. Without government regulation to say "bad ISP, bad", they can regulate my ability to access services and charge me more to slowly peel back that regulation.

In case you are still confused, here's the definition of 'regulation':

> to control or direct by a rule, principle, method

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