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Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

gwern.net

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Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#11

Post by gwern »

a_t48 wrote: post #5
gwern wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've idly wondered how you could interpret all the mutations in X-Men, but I don't know enough about the families or inheritance to make any reasonable guesses (I've seen a few cartoons and movies and that's about it). I know mutants generally have mutant kids but don't the powers differ? Which doesn't make much sense and I can't retcon it. I have noticed, however, that in _My Little Pony_ (which I've finally gotten…

Why not two traits? One that determines if (Earth || !Earth) (call it the "Magic" gene) and one that determines (Pegasus || Unicorn) but only if the other gene is active.

I don't really like some of the mechanisms like dominance because it implies something for which we have no canon evidence: biases in discordant offspring towards particular types. And requires some rather specific patterns: in that case, it would require Mr and Mrs Cake to both have exactly 1 Earth/!Earth allele pair (so they become Earth but have a !Earth which can be passed on) and then each has a different Pegasus or Unicorn allele, which then also separately get passed on so they have two kids with !Earth/Pegasus and !Earth/Unicorn pairs. And it seems like if that were how it worked, you would expect way more discordant families to show up. (While polytomous threshold model can accommodate any level of rarity or stochasticness quite easily and naturally.)

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#12

Post by philipov »

dbasedweeb wrote: post #10
philipov wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that gene mixing is a highly quantum mechanical process, and so we are precluded from predicting the result of a single event. We can only predict the probability of a particular mix of genes. They could direct averages, but not individual events.

Of course with the spice and mentats, they could probably use some limited form of prescience to explore possible avenues the future was likely to take. It is a universe in which magic, by another name, works.

Once you accept that premise, throw rationalizations out the window. There's no point theorycrafting, just make up anything you like. Whether or not something is possible is a function of what is needed for the story. The answer to any such question is, "Do you want it to be?"

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#13

Post by brandonmenc »

badloginagain wrote: post #7

I always assumed that the BG were directing genetic averages across whole populations, and/or had such a deep understanding of genetics that they could predict the exact result of two peoples genes mixing. If you could determine with 99% accuracy the exact genome of a child by their parents genomes alone, would you be able to optimize humans across given a relatively small set?

But in Dune there are mechanisms beyond genetics at work - that's why artificial insemination is prohibited - the BG believe the emotional act of copulation influences traits in the offspring.

Also "wild genes" - particularly those of the Fremen - producing unexpected results (ex: Leto II).

The Bene Tleilax though, they're probably making solid genetic projections.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#14

Post by dbasedweeb »

philipov wrote: post #12
dbasedweeb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course with the spice and mentats, they could probably use some limited form of prescience to explore possible avenues the future was likely to take. It is a universe in which magic, by another name, works.

Once you accept that premise, throw rationalizations out the window. There's no point theorycrafting, just make up anything you like. Whether or not something is possible is a function of what is needed for the story. The answer to any such question is, "Do you want it to be?"

I enjoy Dune a lot, but what you describe is absolutely the basis for any science in the story. It’s less science fiction and more high fantasy.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#15

Post by krapp »

philipov wrote: post #12
dbasedweeb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course with the spice and mentats, they could probably use some limited form of prescience to explore possible avenues the future was likely to take. It is a universe in which magic, by another name, works.

Once you accept that premise, throw rationalizations out the window. There's no point theorycrafting, just make up anything you like. Whether or not something is possible is a function of what is needed for the story. The answer to any such question is, "Do you want it to be?"

There is "hard" and "soft" magic in fantasy, just as there's "hard" and "soft" science in SF. A story with magic in the premise still needs that magic to have rules and limitations, even if they're not communicated to the reader - even the soft magic of myth and fairy tales needs to have some sense of internal logic.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#16

Post by simonh »

philipov wrote: post #12
dbasedweeb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course with the spice and mentats, they could probably use some limited form of prescience to explore possible avenues the future was likely to take. It is a universe in which magic, by another name, works.

Once you accept that premise, throw rationalizations out the window. There's no point theorycrafting, just make up anything you like. Whether or not something is possible is a function of what is needed for the story. The answer to any such question is, "Do you want it to be?"

The best science fiction and fantasy begins by taking a few specific assumptions, which may be fantastical, but then exploring the consequences of those assumptions in a disciplined way. For example having one form of FTL travel with known limitations in an SF setting and exploring the possibilities within those rules.

Writers that take your approach - it’s all made up so I’ll just make up new rules whenever so feel like it - are rarely satisfying because the reader can’t trust anything or reason about the setting or the characters choices.

This is the problem with J.J. Abrams approach Star Trek and Star Wars. He seemed to take a special glee in arbitrarily violating established conventions in the settings with respect to things like how Warp Drive and Transporter technology work in Star Trek.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#18

Post by pmoriarty »

madengr wrote: post #17

Had to stop reading due to spoilers. Currently on Children of Dune. Alternating between that series and Asimov.

Children of Dune and Dune Messiah are, imo, the weakest of Frank Herbert's Dune series. Persevere through those and you'll be rewarded in his later books.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#19

Post by madhadron »

philipov wrote: post #9
badloginagain wrote: post #7

I always assumed that the BG were directing genetic averages across whole populations, and/or had such a deep understanding of genetics that they could predict the exact result of two peoples genes mixing. If you could determine with 99% accuracy the exact genome of a child by their parents genomes alone, would you be able to optimize humans across given a relatively small set?

Except that gene mixing is a highly quantum mechanical process, and so we are precluded from predicting the result of a single event. We can only predict the probability of a particular mix of genes. They could direct averages, but not individual events.

Not quantum mechanical, just random, and the available material is restricted in each cross.

Re: Genetics and Eugenics in Frank Herbert's DUNE

#20

Post by otakucode »

badloginagain wrote: post #7

I always assumed that the BG were directing genetic averages across whole populations, and/or had such a deep understanding of genetics that they could predict the exact result of two peoples genes mixing. If you could determine with 99% accuracy the exact genome of a child by their parents genomes alone, would you be able to optimize humans across given a relatively small set?

No. Not even with that degree of knowledge could one effectively engineer towards a goal. Or, rather, one could engineer towards a goal but only by either accepting or ignoring profound weaknesses and drawbacks. Look at something like Golden Retrievers, for example. They were effectively developed into a distinct breed... and suffer tremendous health complications from it. It's not a matter of the breeders slipping up. It's a matter of genes and genetic activity being complex enough that all 'pure' traits are paired with 'pure' flaws. You cannot acquire one without the other.

This leaves aside the more important question raised by the scope of the Dune universe, which is defining what 'optimal' would even mean in such a world. Traits are only optimal or sub-optimal relative to an environment. Being smart and not able to move heavy objects would doom a medieval man, but being stupid but strong would hamper a modern man. That's a facile example and you'd be more likely talking about weakness to certain pathogens, dependence upon particular physical environmental needs (oxygen level, caloric availability, body temperature control efficiency, etc) though, really. If you're going to be planet-hopping and galavanting across the universe, what is optimal in one place can kill you in another and vice versa. The myth that there is a 'strongest' state is just that, a myth.

In genetics, diversity always wins. Flexibility and complexity always wins. Being mediocre at everything is a far greater survival trait than being a master at one is if it means you are a total failure on another count. Living things can only fail once.

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