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Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

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Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see three things to solve this kind of issue. 1) The elimination of unpaid overtime for anyone that isn't a 'corporate office able to hire employees at will'. 2) Required 'typical hours' in employment contracts; companies can't pay out less than this unless the employee agrees, and the employee cannot be forced to work MORE unless they agree. 3) All firings have to be for cause.

All firings for cause will reduce hiring. It will create more illiquidity in the labor market, drive down wages and reduce mobility and efficiency. Look at the French labor market if you want to see how that nightmare plays out. 10%+ unemployment and a vast increase in time-limited, non-permanent work. I don’t owe you a job. If I don’t need you any more, why the hell should I be forced to owe you? Are you required to…

I'm not an expert on that; however wouldn't the issue be with the /difficulty/ in firing, not the fact that it merely has to be documented and for a 'valid' reason? Though now that you mention it, such reasons probably should be regulated the same way sealed court records are; unless challenged in a lawsuit.

Also, from the perspective of an employer, a valid reason very well could be the end of the project that a contract is for; such a termination / re-evaluation date should be built in to the contact and clear up front.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's weird, I got the opposite conclusion. I would have thought this happened because China choose to drift back to free markets instead of improving their central planning. The government demanded a larger market for graduations, and the colleges were free to increase their prices. Is that not econ 101 supply and demand? Now the graduates are on the market and whoever wants to hire can pay at a lower market price,…

>I would have thought this happened because China choose to drift back to free markets instead of improving their central planning. What would "improving their central planning" mean? Force people to study certain subjects? Force people to teach for free? Throwing government money into a market definitely disrupts it. Perhaps it doesn't make it not "free" but it causes distortions that likely would not have come abou…

> What would "improving their central planning" mean? Force people to study certain subjects? Force people to teach for free?

That's an unfair misrepresentation of central planning, using the phrase "force people to" to imply some kind of slavery unique to central planning. Maybe the Chinese government will choose to use it's state monopoly on violence to coerce people into unwanted job, but it's not like you don't need a garbage crew in both economic systems. Central planning can be used to make funding available for high priority items. You can technically force people at gunpoint into specific degree paths and occupations, but more likely you'll make the jobs exist and make sure potential engineers aren't trapped at the bottom of the economy.

> Yes, it is. That means that these aren't simply forces that can be wished away by a central government with an agenda. They are things that come about naturally.

There are tons of examples in science where designed and engineered systems outperform natural systems. No amount of "natural horses" can compete with modern trains, space shuttles, bus systems, race cars, etc.. And there are things science hasn't discovered how to optimize yet, so we do end up still using horses from time to time, despite cars being ubiquitous in modern society.

> "Good central planning" is an oxymoron if you ask me. In order to guarantee that people have jobs, you have to take away people's free will to make sure they can perform the functions you as a central planner desire. They cannot study what they want, you will essentially have to plan people's entire lives for them. This is all assuming that people are interchangeable cogs and you are able to predict that people will be good at the tasks you wish for them to perform.

This is a pretty flawed argument against central planning. You do not have to plan people's entire lives. Outside of religion and perhaps some SciFi novel about AI, I've never heard of any central planning theories having a plan for people's entire lives. What happens is that people naturally pick what they want to do, and some people don't really pick anything coherent. You make plans based on where you currently are, what resources you estimate you will have next year, and where you are looking to go. You iterate each planning cycle based on successes and failures. This is not much different than how large corporations do their planning. Most notable difference is that "success" will be measured in something much more valuable to society than private profits. Another aspect of a good central plan is that you can't plan for everything. There are people who are naturally motivated to do something useful, so it may be optimal to give them a team and see if future planning cycles can benefit from the team's output.

The alternative to this is that you have writers and artists wasting their talents serving coffee at starbucks. You have people who didn't study what they want because only STEM jobs are going to be above minimum wage for sure in the next 20 years. You have a system that looks at the bottom half of the economy and says "I have no plan for you.". How many teams are building redundant clones of candy crush? How many teams are seeking to innovate for the sake of seeking new rents rather than for innovation itself? How many teams are focusing on getting consumers to buy fake/misleading products? How many teams are trying to market dangerous, unhealthy, and/or addictive high margin items to children? How many "free markets" have rational actors that depend on information asymmetry for the majority of their consensual arrangements? These issues are rampant epidemics under capitalism. Entrepreneurs are a slave to profit motives and the people are not free. Only the free market is free.

> Point being, I think it is pretty safe to say that private R&D spending dwarfs public spending. The large corporations that are often maligned are the best institutions to do risky R&D as they have lots of resources and experience in their problem domain. Of course they don't always do so, but if they don't a competitor will.

Looking at your sources, $200 billion in private R&D is less than the 1.1 trillion in public spending. I don't think it would be accurate or meaningful to say there is a significant difference.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All firings for cause will reduce hiring. It will create more illiquidity in the labor market, drive down wages and reduce mobility and efficiency. Look at the French labor market if you want to see how that nightmare plays out. 10%+ unemployment and a vast increase in time-limited, non-permanent work. I don’t owe you a job. If I don’t need you any more, why the hell should I be forced to owe you? Are you required to…

I'm not an expert on that; however wouldn't the issue be with the /difficulty/ in firing, not the fact that it merely has to be documented and for a 'valid' reason? Though now that you mention it, such reasons probably should be regulated the same way sealed court records are; unless challenged in a lawsuit. Also, from the perspective of an employer, a valid reason very well could be the end of the project that a con…

That’s more laying off than firing. Forcing a cause to fire/lay off someone makes the company think long and hard before hiring you since they’ll be stuck with you, therefore less hiring. Not to mention “unfirable” workers leads to less quality.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would have thought this happened because China choose to drift back to free markets instead of improving their central planning. What would "improving their central planning" mean? Force people to study certain subjects? Force people to teach for free? Throwing government money into a market definitely disrupts it. Perhaps it doesn't make it not "free" but it causes distortions that likely would not have come abou…

> What would "improving their central planning" mean? Force people to study certain subjects? Force people to teach for free? That's an unfair misrepresentation of central planning, using the phrase "force people to" to imply some kind of slavery unique to central planning. Maybe the Chinese government will choose to use it's state monopoly on violence to coerce people into unwanted job, but it's not like you don't n…

Dude the gov can’t even get healthcare right, now reread your MASSIVE essay comment here and find all the problems with a gov managing this many moving parts and people. Nobody will go for this because we all know it will fail, reguardless of how “better planned systems are”

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would "improving their central planning" mean? Force people to study certain subjects? Force people to teach for free? That's an unfair misrepresentation of central planning, using the phrase "force people to" to imply some kind of slavery unique to central planning. Maybe the Chinese government will choose to use it's state monopoly on violence to coerce people into unwanted job, but it's not like you don't n…

Dude the gov can’t even get healthcare right, now reread your MASSIVE essay comment here and find all the problems with a gov managing this many moving parts and people. Nobody will go for this because we all know it will fail, reguardless of how “better planned systems are”

The United States is currently the laughing stock of the first world when it comes to who gets healthcare right. You're saying that after seeing the way republicans set out to intentionally sabotage the 2008-2016 president's entire career (including healthcare reforms), people are going to want to follow the republican plan of doing the complete opposite of what is working with great success for the rest of the modern first world?

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#296
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was agreeing with this part: "There's no such things as "human rights standards" for how much you should work per week." A 40 hour work week isn't (in my view) a "human right" in the way that life, liberty and property are rights. It's an exchange of time/work for money. People can choose to work a lot or work a little depending on how they value their time vs their leisure.

I believe the assertion about basic human rights is rooted more in research about maximum "productive" hours a day/week. Scientists have proven that hunter-gatherer tribes work anywhere between 10 to 20h a week and are doing just fine. The 40h a week is pretty artificial default that has been imposed on most of the people by business interests. That's how I view it historically at least. So we might not agree on slip…

As far as I know, the 40h/week was pushed by unions, not business interests (those wanted more).

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah and they had nothing to eat at all some years if the harvest was bad, and no medical care and most people died in their 30s. So, which scenario do you prefer?

Ok, so now you're making an observation about medicine instead of hours of work. What exactly is your point here? Things are better now than they were in the past, so there's no reason why they should be better?

I mentioned harvests which have nothing to do with medicine. I know we don't suffer from famines nowadays but this was a real thing before.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the assertion about basic human rights is rooted more in research about maximum "productive" hours a day/week. Scientists have proven that hunter-gatherer tribes work anywhere between 10 to 20h a week and are doing just fine. The 40h a week is pretty artificial default that has been imposed on most of the people by business interests. That's how I view it historically at least. So we might not agree on slip…

As far as I know, the 40h/week was pushed by unions, not business interests (those wanted more).

History is written by the victors, so we'll never truly know. Maybe the unions were bought out?

What's more likely however is that 40h a week seemed more reasonable than the baseline at the time.

Still doesn't make it good for the humans in general though. Time and again studies show humans have no flat productivity rate, and some studies are trying to prove that 40h a week is too much and the people don't have enough productive hours left outside of that to actually tend to family, house cleaning, cooking, leisure hobbies etc.

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