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Münchhausen trilemma

en.wikipedia.org

61–70 of 80 posts

Re: Münchhausen trilemma

#61

Those three options are not "equally" unsatisfactory. In fact, the axiomatic option is almost always entirely satisfactory. The marvel and utility of an axiomatic foundation cannot be categorically compared to the absurdity of regressing ad infinitum or going in circles.

Well, depends who you ask. One could argue that axiomatic foundations in geometry made it take much longer to discover hyperbolic geometry.

(One could view the axiomatic approach as a stand-in for truncating all of the required infinite proof below a well-established line.)

Re: Münchhausen trilemma

#62
I find the concept of paradigms, as described by Kuhn, to be a much better model for truth and knowledge than axioms or series of "proofs" chained one after the other.

Re: Münchhausen trilemma

#63
post #55

To be clear this trilemma is only a problem for rationalists, like Hans Albert. This problem doesn't exist for German Idealists like Kant or Schelling or even the empiricists. You escape the problem of infinite regression through acknowledging that the only thing real is experience, which lends you to the haven of relative objectivity, which is that of which modern science has become. You would think that the conjure…

Yes, but so many tech people see themselves as rationalists or at least rational utilitarians, and I'm going to guess most of this forum does as well. Given that so many tech people see themselves this way, diving into the trilemma (and discussing how Idealists or empiricists moved past it) is important and probably eye-opening for many.

Re: Münchhausen trilemma

#64

To me, this is a great illustration that there's no other coherent place to start any form of discussion, reasoning, or belief than with axioms (or assumptions). Regressive and circular arguments only shift the problem. I believe that if one is looking for truth in a big-picture sense (religious or philosophical), the best approach is to evaluate various existing systems of axioms/assumptions and apply a twofold test…

I heavily disagree; axioms are never a good place to start, nor, historically, they ever were a starting place.

Working mathematicians do a lot of mathematics and constructions before stopping to look and say: "OK, we can distill this rich theory down to this small set of axioms".

Geometry has been quite developed before Euclid's axioms, and number theory took its sweet millenia before Peano's axioms were developed.

On a more modern side, a lot of topology has been produced before people decided to write down a list of axioms for homology, which all the different homology constructions satisfied.

The point is that understanding almost always precedes formal reasoning, language follows ideas, and rigid systems arise on a fertile soil of messy experiments - mental or physical.

If you look at the history of science and mathematics, nothing was ever built up from the formulas and axioms (criminally contrary to the way these subjects are taught).

There is an underappreciated beauty in our ability to argue about, reason with, and make use of concepts that we haven't even really defined. Everyone knew Newton's Calculus was full of holes, and people used it for centuries before coming up with solid definitions of limits, derivatives and integrals - the most fundamental concepts of the subject!

And on that note, people used real numbers for a long time before having the formal machinery to define them. Zeno didn't have the axioms to resolve his paradox. Didn't stop anyone from using these weird objects in reasoning and practice.

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TL;DR: never start with axioms, end with them.

Re: Münchhausen trilemma

#66
post #55

To be clear this trilemma is only a problem for rationalists, like Hans Albert. This problem doesn't exist for German Idealists like Kant or Schelling or even the empiricists. You escape the problem of infinite regression through acknowledging that the only thing real is experience, which lends you to the haven of relative objectivity, which is that of which modern science has become. You would think that the conjure…

Isn't this taking the 'axiomatic' path?

> through acknowledging that the only thing real is experience

This seems like the key axiom for idealists/empiricists. Of course that leads you to many other details and questions (namely, which experiences?)

Re: Münchhausen trilemma

#67
post #55

To be clear this trilemma is only a problem for rationalists, like Hans Albert. This problem doesn't exist for German Idealists like Kant or Schelling or even the empiricists. You escape the problem of infinite regression through acknowledging that the only thing real is experience, which lends you to the haven of relative objectivity, which is that of which modern science has become. You would think that the conjure…

Isn't this taking the 'axiomatic' path? > through acknowledging that the only thing real is experience This seems like the key axiom for idealists/empiricists. Of course that leads you to many other details and questions (namely, which experiences?)

It is an observed axiom, rather than an "accepted" axiom, which the article implies is the only kind.

Re: Münchhausen trilemma

#68
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this taking the 'axiomatic' path? > through acknowledging that the only thing real is experience This seems like the key axiom for idealists/empiricists. Of course that leads you to many other details and questions (namely, which experiences?)

It is an observed axiom, rather than an "accepted" axiom, which the article implies is the only kind.

Why does observing something mean that something is true?

If you keep asking questions, at some point you must get to either an accepted axiom, a circularity, or infinite regress.

Re: Münchhausen trilemma

#69
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an observed axiom, rather than an "accepted" axiom, which the article implies is the only kind.

Why does observing something mean that something is true? If you keep asking questions, at some point you must get to either an accepted axiom, a circularity, or infinite regress.

There is no possible reality in which the observation of anything can be explained by absolute nothingness. We know that existence exists, and that within that existence is consciousness capable of perceiving it. These are self-evident axioms upon observing anything at all. I think it's fair to say that we don't know why reality exists, but we know that it is true that something exists at all.

Re: Münchhausen trilemma

#70
post #55

To be clear this trilemma is only a problem for rationalists, like Hans Albert. This problem doesn't exist for German Idealists like Kant or Schelling or even the empiricists. You escape the problem of infinite regression through acknowledging that the only thing real is experience, which lends you to the haven of relative objectivity, which is that of which modern science has become. You would think that the conjure…

Isn't this taking the 'axiomatic' path? > through acknowledging that the only thing real is experience This seems like the key axiom for idealists/empiricists. Of course that leads you to many other details and questions (namely, which experiences?)

No, Experience is forced upon you, it is neither an assumption or something discovered through reason.

Additionally, words like "real", "exists" or "reality" only have meaning in this way, otherwise it would be impossible to understand them since understanding is only through terms of experience.

However, it's important to note that idealists aren't naive realists, they acknowledge that what they see is created by their own sensory organs. That is, there is the not-object that cannot be discussed or learned about further than the knowledge obtained from the negative predicate of the object—hence why you can only see one side of a coin or why your experience can change through hallucinatory drugs.

The not-object is also necessary for communication between individuals, where the inter-subjective experience must be mapped to do so.

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