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System76 and LVFS

blog.system76.com

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Re: System76 and LVFS

#51

Post by acomjean »

iel99 wrote: post #27
acomjean wrote: post #14

This is the whole open source community destroying (edit: maybe better term would be "damaging") itself. Basically it starts civilly about finding the one best way to do something. They agree to disagree. Then there 2 standards...Then 4, then 8 all not having the effort exerted to make each solution great. Then one party writes something like "don't buy this it not free/ doesn't do this". And in the end 99+% of peopl…

Hyperbole Dozens of projects have gone this way and the open source community still exists It’s almost as if the notion of one size fits all is a utilitarian idea to simplify production of physical goods We need to maybe look at why we keep trynna force that on more ephemeral ideas I’m not obliged to speak English any one why. Why bother with making sure everyone runs the same code or manages only one or two key proj…

Linux is great. But even with a strong personality leading there are just too many options for the average consumer.

Software and operating systems are a feedback loop. The more software for a OS the more people use that OS which drives more and better software. As a Mac user in the 90s we suffered from a lack quality software and almost the demise of that platform.

It’s always the year of the Linux desktop, but it can’t seem to displace windows despite being cheaper.. I want great options for computers with Linux pre installed.

But it’s hard sell. Which disto?

Which desktop to use? Gnome, kde.... filesystem? Want to install something non standard? Better hope that they build the software with the same libraries and the same distribution.

Choice is great, but after reading about the linux desktop in another post, people have their favorites, but it seems like there is a lot of work to be done polishing them. With limited developers volunteering we end up with 10ish ok options instead of 2 or 3 great ones.

You want as many people using your platform to keep it healthy and strong.

Re: System76 and LVFS

#52

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

monochromatic wrote: post #19
jimnotgym wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cheapest Purism seems to be $300 more than the cheapest System76. Is the purpose of your comment to say that more expensive laptops are better?

Is that a controversial idea, that more expensive things are often better?

I might not phrase it that way, but notice that it's not exactly a one-to-one correlation. Given, y'know, that we are busy discussing hardware to run Linux... Which is free in both senses. It's a stronger correlation in hardware, but still imperfect; one brand being higher quality than another while undercutting them by a couple hundred dollars wouldn't shock me.

Re: System76 and LVFS

#53

Post by ams6110 »

BadassFractal wrote: post #42

I personally dislike their hardware (I've owned Clevo / Sager for close to 15 years now, they've always felt cheap and plasticky), but I think their PPA and support are great. The problem is that it's not clear what exactly is better out there for Linux enthusiasts who want a MacBook Pro-like experience out of the box. They're the least worst solution on the market as far as I can tell.

> Linux enthusiasts who want a MacBook Pro-like experience out of the box.

How big a group is this? Most enthusiasts like the ceremony of installing and configuring their favorite distros to their likings.

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by "enthusiast?"

Re: System76 and LVFS

#54

Post by majewsky »

emeraldd wrote: post #7
verbatim wrote: post #2

This article doesn't seem to explain why they have a hard dependency on a proprietary tool to flash the firmware. There are no alternatives to AFUEFI?

Based on there comments in the article, I'd say that was their conclusion: There is no other way to interpret this email other than LVFS won’t work well for us. UpdateCapsule is not supported by over a decade of machines in the field and could not be added without a firmware update.

Please don't use code blocks for quotes. This is truncated and unreadable on mobile. Just use a normal paragraph with a ">" prefix.

Re: System76 and LVFS

#55

Post by Applejinx »

basementcat wrote: post #20
ggm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, both sides are acting somewhat unprofessionally in this story. This. I think the whole "longer lever to move the boulder is to do this in public" is a very very bad trend. Posting stuff like this is inflammatory, on both sides.

Based on recent electoral trends from around the world, this sort of engaging spirited behavior may be exactly what consumers want.

That would be a belief that market behavior delivers optimal outcomes. If you instead think that market dynamics can deliver very bad results, this makes sense as an example of it: sure, consumers like seeing it, but it's not helping and the consumers are wrong to think it is.

Re: System76 and LVFS

#56

Post by iel99 »

iodiniemetra wrote: post #32
iel99 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hyperbole Dozens of projects have gone this way and the open source community still exists It’s almost as if the notion of one size fits all is a utilitarian idea to simplify production of physical goods We need to maybe look at why we keep trynna force that on more ephemeral ideas I’m not obliged to speak English any one why. Why bother with making sure everyone runs the same code or manages only one or two key proj…

Not hyperbole, a real problem that leads to interop issues. For example, the hellish filesystem wars of the mid 2000s. Most distros STILL ship ext4 despite there being better options.

With respect you missed my point

Why should your interop concerns influence choices I need to make for my project?

Shared utilitarian solutions to basic human problems like food, healthcare, shelter, Linux kernel I get

Why do I need to adopt anyone else’s “code slang” for my otherwise specific needs? If ext4 works who are you to tell me to use something you think is “better”?

Re: System76 and LVFS

#57

Post by [deleted] »

jackpot51 wrote: post #10
verbatim wrote: post #2

This article doesn't seem to explain why they have a hard dependency on a proprietary tool to flash the firmware. There are no alternatives to AFUEFI?

I am the engineer at System76 that has been working on the low-level firmware update procedure. The only alternative is to reverse engineer the SPI flashing method. We have switched to using FPT, the Intel Flash Programming tool, on new models. This means that we need to reverse engineer the SPI update method, which is something the flashrom project has had success in doing for older Intel chipsets.

[deleted]

Re: System76 and LVFS

#58

Post by mynewtb »

iodiniemetra wrote: post #32
iel99 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hyperbole Dozens of projects have gone this way and the open source community still exists It’s almost as if the notion of one size fits all is a utilitarian idea to simplify production of physical goods We need to maybe look at why we keep trynna force that on more ephemeral ideas I’m not obliged to speak English any one why. Why bother with making sure everyone runs the same code or manages only one or two key proj…

Not hyperbole, a real problem that leads to interop issues. For example, the hellish filesystem wars of the mid 2000s. Most distros STILL ship ext4 despite there being better options.

What general purpose FS would be a better standard?

Re: System76 and LVFS

#59

Post by AdmiralAsshat »

gshulegaard wrote: post #40
smacktoward wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who uses Linux on a laptop (ThinkPad) and would love to support a Linux-first laptop vendor, the question I've always had about System76 specifically is: what value exactly do they add? System76's pitch is that they add value by ironing out all the compatibility issues Linux can have on laptops, so they "just work" the way macOS does on MacBooks and Windows does on ThinkPads and Dell XPSes. But they're mad…

So as someone who has owned a System76 and a Dell XPS I can say a few things, just a random bullet list of thoughts neither positive or negative leaning: * System76 came before the Dell XPS (as far as out of the box installed Linux). * System76 drivers are distributed via private repo. * Dell's patch work is often upstreamed so non-Dell hardware/customers can benefit. * When I bought a Dell XPS 13 9160 it shipped wit…

My Dell XPS 13 9343 was similarly rather hit-or-miss on Ubuntu, despite it being the OS that shipped with their "Developer Edition". Fedora, on the other hand, worked fine--since it was brand new hardware, more than anything just having the bleeding edge kernel helped fix a bunch of the issues, except for the WiFi. I switched to an Intel card for that.

Re: System76 and LVFS

#60

Post by AdmiralAsshat »

craftyguy wrote: post #12
kentt wrote: post #8

Just don't touch system76. They're just low quality rebranded Sager laptops with a crap version on Linux. You can just buy the same laptop and if you really like their horrible version of Linux, then put that on there.

Alternatively, there's Purism ( https://puri.sm ), who actually take security and build quality seriously. Edit: looks like the system76 downvote brigade is hitting this discussion.

In theory, if both Purism and System76 upstream their work towards open hardware and in neutralizing the IntelME, the work should benefit everyone.
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