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Interviews vs. auditions

ryanholiday.net

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Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#61

Post by nunya213 »

frostmatthew wrote: post #34
fouc wrote: post #3

Would reframing the developer "technical interview" as an audition instead create better expectations for everyone?

That's the analogy I use when people complain that whiteboarding doesn't mimic/approximate they day-to-day job. If you're the casting director for a play you're going to have auditions, you're not going to cast people based (solely) on their resume and having a conversation about their acting background. But auditions are very different than an actual performance: there's no audience or costumes or props, the lightin…

I agree with the sentiment but almost no other profession does this. Could you imagine a Surgeon being forced to "Audition" for his job? "Here perform heart surgery on this guy for us, if he lives you get the job."

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#62

Post by sebastos »

mox1 wrote: post #58
pitt1980 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

good comment the typically interview gotten through a college job fair, and a coding interview, prices human labor as a commodity sometimes commodities sell for high prices, but in general, you'll do better if you don't compete as a commodity this is a method for competing along a different axis

That's the one big problem with this piece of advice. This style of interview (ahem audition) will NOT work when applying for your 1st, 2nd or even 3rd jobs. McDonalds and even Facebook need a lot of worker bees. They need very few Performers (CEO, CFO, Chief Strategist, Head of Content and Marketing, etc. etc.) It works only when you are no longer a commodity and have a specialization. Its great advice that I hope t…

This is also a really good insight. To be Andy Reid you have to do both things: take copious notes AND audition.

It definitely seems important to understand the positive psychology aspects of this and set yourself up for success, but perhaps it's also true that the reason many people don't come into interviews with a 'pitch' is that... there is no such pitch. A lot of people _can't_ take the business somewhere new and interesting, or provide indispensable value. And they subconsciously know this. It's not that they can't _ever_ do these things, it's just that they need to acquire more expertise and build a vision.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#63

Post by brookhaven_dude »

This is basically what a good sales pitch is. Call it audition if you want. A lot of developer jobs are not looking for this kind of drive and skill set though. In fact, I have been told by a former startup employer to not spend so many brain cycles on how to improve the business and just focus on getting the code to work.

Many managers feel threatened by such people it seems. So not a good idea if looking for a job. Good template if pitching to investors.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#64

Post by pitt1980 »

mox1 wrote: post #58
pitt1980 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

good comment the typically interview gotten through a college job fair, and a coding interview, prices human labor as a commodity sometimes commodities sell for high prices, but in general, you'll do better if you don't compete as a commodity this is a method for competing along a different axis

That's the one big problem with this piece of advice. This style of interview (ahem audition) will NOT work when applying for your 1st, 2nd or even 3rd jobs. McDonalds and even Facebook need a lot of worker bees. They need very few Performers (CEO, CFO, Chief Strategist, Head of Content and Marketing, etc. etc.) It works only when you are no longer a commodity and have a specialization. Its great advice that I hope t…

For the most part I agree (is it too tacky if I link to my other comment down page where I attempt to expand on that idea? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17047045

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#65

Post by castlecrasher2 »

spodek wrote: post #47
ironchef wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you want to avoid challenges in life and just get a job so you can retire 50 years later with nothing remarkable in between, that strategy works." I find this to be hyperbolic. Compliance and presenting yourself as having more value than the person next you have are not deterministic in "avoiding challenges in life" and not accomplishing anything remarkable. I don't want to run a startup. I want to put my head do…

"If you want X, Y works" doesn't imply that "doing Y means you want X," which, unless I misunderstand you, is what you were reacting to. Speaking of SEALs, I just wrote about them in the draft of my next book, on becoming entrepreneurial, in relation to ASEEP fields, which may be relevant to this thread, since military training trains performance: "Entrepreneurship is as active, social, emotional, expressive, perform…

I feel like this is something I've known about but never could quite describe it. Do you have any books or other resources you could link or DM me? I'm interested in learning more.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#66

Post by vinayms »

I only skimmed the article, but whenever I read such material I feel these techniques are suited for jobs banking on charisma instead of knowledge and skill based ones.

I am a software engineer. I haven't held too many jobs, and have attended very few interviews. As an interviewee, I always gauged the enthusiasm of the interviewer before 'unleashing my talent'. I have had my share of insipid interviews where the focus was on API specifics instead of ideas and larger pictures. I politely excused myself out of the building mid interview when I realized they needed just a code monkey, albeit with experience. Seizing control would have been a total waste.

I have also conducted my share of interviews. The biggest turn off for me is when candidates try too hard to impress, either by listing out insignificant contributions to FOSS they have made, especially when not asked, or wearing their supposed geekiness on their sleeves. The worst are the self declared nerds and geeks, who speak, look and act in a way that covers all the stereotypes floating on the web. Its worse when, out of turn, they bring up a cool thing they 'hacked'.

Generally, going beyond job interviews, I think the need for being alpha is ridiculously amusing. I am no psychologist, but it smacks of overcompensation and utter lack of self confidence. I avoid such people in life.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#67

Post by mCOLlSVIxp6c »

Further discussion from Ryan about this topic in a recent EconTalk podcast:

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/04/ryan_holiday_on_1.h...

The part about interviews vs. auditions is around the 49 minute mark. The entire podcast was fascinating. The topic of the podcast is his recent book about Gawker and Peter Thiel and a broader discussion about "conspiracies".

edit: separate HN thread for this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17048391

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#68

Post by spodek »

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #65
spodek wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you want X, Y works" doesn't imply that "doing Y means you want X," which, unless I misunderstand you, is what you were reacting to. Speaking of SEALs, I just wrote about them in the draft of my next book, on becoming entrepreneurial, in relation to ASEEP fields, which may be relevant to this thread, since military training trains performance: "Entrepreneurship is as active, social, emotional, expressive, perform…

I feel like this is something I've known about but never could quite describe it. Do you have any books or other resources you could link or DM me? I'm interested in learning more.

I wrote my book to fill the gap I saw between teaching about leading people and developing leadership practices.

Amazon has the preface and first chapter in the "look inside" link above the picture of it https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Step-Become-Person-Others/..., which develops what I wrote here more.

The movie Most Likely To Succeed http://www.mltsfilm.org is about project-based learning. The books and articles by the guys behind it, Tony Wagner and Ted Dintersmith, are on active education and I found valuable.

Here's a post of mine with a video of Ted and the movie director: http://joshuaspodek.com/another-problem-with-traditional-edu... and links to relevant posts of mine.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#69

Post by scarface74 »

ironchef wrote: post #43
spodek wrote: post #25

I teach and coach people to get jobs through performance and it works. Schools teach people to react, take tests, and show how great they are. For a posted opening, you're presenting yourself as a commodity -- a slightly shinier one, you hope. It's based on compliance. Most analytical, geeky types got a lot of schooling. After decades of it, most people have learned that model without awareness of alternatives. If yo…

"If you want to avoid challenges in life and just get a job so you can retire 50 years later with nothing remarkable in between, that strategy works." I find this to be hyperbolic. Compliance and presenting yourself as having more value than the person next you have are not deterministic in "avoiding challenges in life" and not accomplishing anything remarkable. I don't want to run a startup. I want to put my head do…

"If you want to avoid challenges in life and just get a job so you can retire 50 years later with nothing remarkable in between, that strategy works.

Despite all of the hyperbole in tech, that's what most of us are doing. We work to provide for our family and if we get hit by a bus tomorrow, the company we work for will put out a req for an open job position and life goes on. It doesn't matter whether you are the janitor or the CEO.

Out of the billions of people in the world, a minuscule number make a long term difference.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#70

Post by adolph »

mCOLlSVIxp6c wrote: post #67

Further discussion from Ryan about this topic in a recent EconTalk podcast: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/04/ryan_holiday_on_1.h... The part about interviews vs. auditions is around the 49 minute mark. The entire podcast was fascinating. The topic of the podcast is his recent book about Gawker and Peter Thiel and a broader discussion about "conspiracies". edit: separate HN thread for this https://news.ycombin…

It was a really good podcast. One of my takeaways is that Holiday does a good job of not "taking sides" even though it is a seductive, socially compelling thing to do. I think that EconTalk and the book deserve their own HN thread.
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