Live data from Hacker News

Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Finding Glyphosate in Food

modernfarmer.com

251–260 of 337 posts

Re: Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Finding Glyphosate in Food

#251
Many farmers routinely use Roundup and other herbicides to clear their fields of weeds before crops emerge in the spring. But what's more alarming is they’re also using glyphosate on crops shortly before they are harvested, in order to desiccate (dry out) the plants and make them easier to harvest.

Glyphosate kills parts of the crop that haven’t ripened evenly, and dries the crop. This allows Combine harvesters to move more quickly and cover more ground during harvest, and may reduce drying costs. But applying glyphosate so close to harvest makes the likelihood of finding residues in food even higher.

From https://www.soilassociation.org/our-campaigns/not-in-our-bre...

Re: Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Finding Glyphosate in Food

#252

From the article: “All of the official samples passed the test and were within the legal limits of glyphosate residue. But those off-the-record, unofficial samples, though done with the same equipment and tested by the same chemists, showed glyphosate. That’s right. The chemists found glyphosate residue on just about everything: crackers, granola, cornmeal, honey, oatmeal, baby food, and even corn. Their surreptitiou…

It seems like it would be really simple to know what's in your food by simply testing for it right? If you're telling me that X substance is in some good that is freely available then it should be easy to prove it. You can catch the EPA/FDA red handed by simply doing some independent testing. The only reason I trust the EPA/FDA over the PhD you refer to is that the barrier of entry to testing something that I can buy…

> Am I mistaken about how difficult it should be to test for glyphosate?

Read the article? The "official" samples contained nothing. "Testing" is not just the process of testing the sample in the lab, it takes place in a context. That context matters a lot, as this example shows. Even if your lab process is reliable, you can do a lot to influence the result before you have a sample on the plate of the technician. It's the same as with any measurement, any study: Before doing the actual measurement there is far larger and more important process that remains mostly invisible or ignored (even when it is published). Focus only is on the "numbers", because "numbers don't lie"...

Re: Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Finding Glyphosate in Food

#253
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember watching a lecture from Vandana Shiva who claimed that glyphosate was harmful and making it in to our food. She cited some European studies that found glyphosate in a wide variety of products. She claimed that there were shady things going on in the US government that seemed to obscure these facts. While this might prove her true that the US government is trying to hide the glyphosate levels in food, does…

Every time the jury is out on a topic where one side has a vested interest and a billion dollar budget to protect it, you can be reasonably sure what the outcome will be. See: pesticides and bees, fossil fuels and climate change, food packaging plastics and cancer, pain treatment meds and addiction. The answer in all those cases is the harmful effects eventually became known, but the jury was out long enough for the…

> "All made possible with a series of comparatively small investments to buy scientific research to keep the jury out."

I agree with 99.9% of what you said, except this bit. I hate to mince words __but it's essential to this tactic__. Simply put:

This is __not__ - and never should be considered - scientific research.

It's fiction.

It's a perversion.

It's the kind of nonsense Orwell warned us about.

There is only one thing more unconscionable: "Real" Science and its ilk remains silent. In addition, certainly, the FDA isn't the only lab capable of making making these test.

But this is contemporary / modern science. Again. Is it any wonder so many have so much doubt?

Re: Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Finding Glyphosate in Food

#254
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "higher morals" is a realistic solution within our current market economy - these are multi-billion dollar corporations which operate on a separate set of motivations from any of their employees. I also don't think our only alternatives are "trust these companies to self-monitor", or blockchain. I'm thinking about 2 kinds of solutions: 1) technical solutions which would improve the current chain-of-cust…

Okay, I guess my point was to say control without trust is expensive. Some level of trust in companies and institutions is necessary. And when balancing this we should consider cost.

You made the statement in the context of the currently discussed article, where not trusting the companies and obtaining samples from supermarkets would have been at least as easy and cheap. That makes it a bit hard to understand what your point is, we have a concrete example, there is no need to theorize about other scenarios. What you came up with has little or no connection to the item being discussed.

Re: Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Finding Glyphosate in Food

#255
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the guy that gave me the gem. If a source is known to lie then the proper weight to place on information from that source is zero. AKA: You don't try and second guess anything that say, you ignore everything they say.

But it's tempting to assume the information is false, and if you do that, you could be making a big mistake. I assume by "zero weight" you mean you don't assume it's true or false, which is quite distinct. One way to look at it is that every statement is true, given sufficient context. The question is, how should it be interpreted, and what is it a true statement about? Generally, when a liar says something, it is in…

By weight I mean the multiplier used when summing it with all the other things you know.

Meaning you don't use information from sources that lie to make decisions. Full Stop.

Re: Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Finding Glyphosate in Food

#256
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regards to GMOs, the green revolution (as I understand it[1], partly using GMOs to increase food production, especially in developing countries) is often described as saving a billion lives. On a brief glance, I can't find a detailed estimate of the Humanitarian effects, but Borlaug received a Nobel peace prize for it and that scale of impact does seem plausible. [1] See discussion below about relative importanc…

> the green revolution (as I understand it[1], partly using GMOs to increase food production, especially in developing countries) is often described as saving a billion lives. This argument is moot, industrialisation saved those lives, not GMO, GMO only provides a 5% increase to crops in the developed world. Tractors, fertilizers and proper agricultural techniques saved the developed world (just like it did in the cu…

Furthermore, currently, world-wide more people die from the "side effects" of too much food; not enough is not the challenge.

We have the food. It's just "unevenly distributed."

Furthermore, my sense is, the argument for the world needing GMOs is based on the animal protein heavy diet. Such animals are resource / feed intensive. Shift the diet to less meats and more plants and the fact is you feed more.

I'm not here to make a case for zero meat. Only the the pro GMO argument is based on a myth, a myth that I've seen plenty of reasonable people buy into.

Re: Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Finding Glyphosate in Food

#258
post #17

I hate articles like this. Zero useful data. Zero useful sources. And zero information about the levels of glyphosate which were found.

This is part of the reason why people believe in conspiracy theories. This issue should be absolutely clear - either there is a harmful level of pesticides in our food or not. Any ambiguity should be investigated by the police as a public endangerment crime. There should be zero room four doubt in cases like this.

> either there is a harmful level of pesticides in our food or not

That is an impossible standard even if we had far better methods. One, "damage" is a continuum. Two, who is affected is a wide range. Three, we only test chemicals individually, and set threshold levels individually, but in reality mixing chemicals very often leads to vastly different effects. For example, when lead and mercury were tested together (LD testing) it was found toxicity increased a thousandfold compared to each one alone. But there is no way to test a meaningful number of combinations, and that would still leave out what happens in the extremely complex biochemical environment of a human body in any case.

For the foreseeable future, maybe forever even in 10,000 years of solid scientific progress (because complex stuff remains complex), will be be able to do more than do guesstimates - and they will all be on a population level, don't even try to say anything definite about an individual.

That means calling for "solid proof of damage" before anything gets banned is a sure way to stall any action almost indefinitely. I recommend a look at the history of lead (which has not yet ended at all). The most "solid proof" I can think of is a large scale and long-term human experiment, unthinkable. Even then you could raise doubts about the context/environment, methods, selected participants, etc. "Solid proof" is a lot less solid than a lot of people think, the text book examples of easy primitive physics experiments make it seem as if it's easy to find out things "for certain".

Re: Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Finding Glyphosate in Food

#259
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Blind opposition to industrial progress -- which is what you are suggesting -- carried by the rising tide of public opinion will cause a ton of damage in the century to come, and the damage will never be repaid. What damage will be caused by people using their phones less for fear of getting cancer? What about GMOs? What is the harm in not using them? The EU has mostly banned them and it doesn't look to be sufferi…

With regards to GMOs, the green revolution (as I understand it[1], partly using GMOs to increase food production, especially in developing countries) is often described as saving a billion lives. On a brief glance, I can't find a detailed estimate of the Humanitarian effects, but Borlaug received a Nobel peace prize for it and that scale of impact does seem plausible. [1] See discussion below about relative importanc…

Saved a billion ~human~ lives, perhaps. It caused the death and destruction of many billions of non-human lives. It massively reduced bio-diversity on 90% of the earths surface.

It has to be said, it has to be acknowledged, the 'progress' of man has come at an extraordinary cost to every other living thing.

Re: Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Finding Glyphosate in Food

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If e.g. artificial sweeteners caused cancers the way many believe, you'd see people dropping dead left and right, with cancers clearly linkable to the use of sweeteners. Wait a min. I don't remember smokers dropping dead left and right in all those times when almost everyone smoked.. Another one is the effects on lead in automobile fuels. Again people were not dropping dead. Despite the issues about it that we have…

> Wait a min. I don't remember smokers dropping dead left and right in all those times when almost everyone smoked.. Because the effect isn't very much pronounced. It's somewhat in the middle between eating rotten meat and using artificial sweeteners, in the sense that it really does damage health over long periods of time, which will result in worse life quality and quicker death of some fraction of smokers. Accordi…

>That was more subtle, but again, found relatively quickly.

Wait. What? How do you measure "relatively quickly"? As far as I know, we have been using it even after the problems were known.......

>The alternative to roundup is pesticides known to be much more toxic. Etc.

Any source for this claim that there are no, absolutely no safer alternatives? Also, is there any proof that a safer alternative is fundamentally impossible to make? Also, have we thought about using safer alternatives, and the hit in production that it might cause. Can we live with that?

Post reply on HN