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Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

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Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#321
post #217
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can teach a kid frequentist (regular) statistics, then you can certainly teach them things like Bayesian statistics. Add things like decision trees (which you need to build something like a chatbot). In fact, a friend of mine from my freshman year (way back before everyone had computers in college) wrote a chatbot. I had never seen anything like it, and he let it loose on IRC. Was pretty cool back when things…

You are describing those models as they are being applied (and as many introduction present them) not how they can be trained. To understand whether those models converge, how to calculate the solution to even a basic linear regression, you need graduate math: matrix algebra, differential calculus, topology.

That's undergraduate math at most universities.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the opposite of what happens to most graduates with specialized degrees. They end up having to explain their degrees, which is generally not a good thing. It happens all the time with engineering. In the job market a degree in mechanical engineering is in general worth more than one in robotics. You also run the risk of graduating into another AI winter, or just deciding you hate AI, and then you reall…

> Imagine graduating now with an undergrad in big data--that sounded like a good idea 5 years ago. Is that a good analogy? Big data started out as a marketing buzzword, whereas AI always was an academic field of research.

AI is a very overloaded term. What we currently call "AI" is likely suffering from the same hype bubble that big data did.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#323

IMHO, a "modest proposal" for the the CMU CS AI degree, CMU CS, and much of STEM field academics: Have much of the department and program borrow from clinical medicine . So, have the department be in part a clinic for solving problems from outside academics via STEM material, information technology, CS, AI, etc. E.g., yes, continue to have seminars with graduate students and professors with, call it, solutions lookin…

Whenever it makes sense to ground research in practice, CMU professors generally do so by working with industry and govt collaborators. Many CMU CS professors also do some paid consulting on the side. However, top tier PhD programs are not and never will be highly discounted consulting shops. At places like CMU grad students have perhaps more academic freedom than even their advisors. And good thing. The day CMUs of…

I've been a STEM field student and prof, and I've published some quite pure math research and also some AI research. My Ph.D. dissertation had its motivation from practice, e.g., from when I was Director of Operations Research at FedEx, and was an early case of what is now a major theme of the Department of Operations Research and Financial Engineering (ORFE) at Princeton. And since my Ph.D., I've made practical applications of math where the key was some relatively pure math research. Moreover, the crucial core of my intended to be fully practical startup is some applied math with some advanced pure math prerequisites.

So, my experience is that what I suggested is not a danger but motivation and stimulation of a lot in pure research.

Having some students do some work with people from outside academics is crucial for their professional development. Of course the work will have graduate student and faculty supervision and high quality. The students should welcome the business world contacts.

There is a lot of the very best pure medical research in labs not far from the wards with dying patients. In important senses, that there are real patients there with their lives literally depending on the results of the research helps both the patients and the research.

It is very much a fact of life in life, applications, and also pure research that a lot of good motivation is from good to excellent. In particular in research, for the younger researchers, finding good problems to work on is one of their most severe struggles. Well, in medicine, a young physician in a research-teaching hospital everyday can see, does see, patients dying in the wards, and that work can help the researcher find good problems to work on.

For your

> Whenever it makes sense to ground research in practice, CMU professors generally do so by working with industry and govt collaborators.

"Whenever", quite commonly and generally and no exceptions? Amazing. I'm thrilled. Good for CMU. Since one of my Ph.D. dissertation advisors was long President at CMU, maybe he was in part responsible for this amazing, thrilling situation?

Color me skeptical: My long experience in and around research tells me that pure research needs much more contact with and stimulation and motivation from practice. Yes, some pure researchers have found really good pure research problems and directions, and, then, they should continue on, but much more common is what I explained, using practical problems as motivation and stimulation, and justification, for research that might be, in my experience often can become, nicely general and pure. Or, if the research is all just routine, then pass the problem off to a ugrad for a class exercise, term paper, or senior honors paper. Else push forward for better results and encounter some real research problems.

Here is a big example: During WWII, G. Dantzig was working on military logistics, e.g., what to ship where, how, when to aid the war effort. After the war, at RAND for, IIRC, the USAF, he continued and as a first cut invented linear programming. About then a special case of that, for the transportation, problem, the "translocation of masses" resulted in a Nobel prize in economics for L. Kantorovich. So, linear programming was already making progress enough in pure research to yield a Nobel prize in economics. And there were some more Nobel prizes from linear programming and optimization.

To solve linear programming problems, Dantzig invented his simplex algorithm, basically a nice tweak on Gauss elimination for systems of linear equations. Cute. Not very pure but at one time rated as one of the most important pieces of work in engineering of the 20th century. In practice, nearly always it is shockingly fast, and it took some nice work decades later in some relatively pure math of computational geometry (K. Borgwardt) to show why it was so fast.

Continuing on, soon enough it was observed that, often in practice, it was required that the variables be restricted to whole number values. That is, the real, practical problems were often integer linear programming (ILP). IIRC, first cut, Dantzig expected that a tweak of his simplex algorithm would be able to handle that.

Work on ILP continued, for decades. There were lots of important practical problems for motivation, e.g., network design at Bell Labs. That problem has remained important, e.g., was the subject of an A. Goldman lecture at Johns Hopkins by MIT Dean of Science T. Magnanti. And there was progress on solutions.

ILP was taken seriously by, okay, Princeton grad R. Gomory.

By then computer science had discovered the problem of sorting, saw that simple bubble sort ran in O(n^2) but that heap sort ran in worst case and average case O(n ln(n)) and met the Gleason bound and, thus, was in the sense of big-O the fastest possible sorting algorithm for sorting just by comparing pairs of keys. So, this was progress in computational time complexity. Since heap sort is also in-place, it was also progress in computational space complexity.

So, with both the practical successes and the struggles of ILP and the practical success of the simplex algorithm and the specter of O( e^n ) for ILP, there was the serious research question of what would be the fastest algorithm in worst case for ILP. This question was asked and explored at Bell Labs and resulted in the now famous

Michael R. Garey and David S. Johnson, Computers and Intractability: A Guide to the Theory of NP-Completeness, ISBN 0-7167-1045-5, W. H. Freeman, San Francisco, 1979.

So, from there ILP is, yes, in NP-complete.

So, now we have at Clay Math in Boston a prize of $1 million for the first solution of the problem in computational time complexity of P versus NP, generally considered one of the most important problems in both pure and applied math and computer science.

Lesson: Practical problems, taken seriously, can result in some of the most important problems in pure research, and some of the progress in pure research can help get solutions to some practical problems. The motivation from pressing practical problems can help drive the research in both pure and applied research.

In particular, the OP was about CMU, CS, and AI. From what I've seen and heard about AI, a lot of what is of interest now, and likely a big part of the CMU AI ugrad program, is "modern regression analysis". Maybe CS and AI need modern here because otherwise they are open to accusations of reinventing and pushing out a lot of hype about some multivariate statistics quite mature as math 50+ years ago.

If CMU CS and AI are willing to take regression so seriously, also going for some of what I mentioned, e.g., convex programming, stochastic optimal control, should be regarded as much more worthy. Making stochastic optimal control more practical is one heck of a challenge but with some progress possible, e.g., as now at the ORFE Department at Princeton.

And we should note that much of the AI interest in regression is based on the work of L. Breiman in Classification and Regression Trees (CART). Breiman was, IIRC "an academic probabilist"; his text Probability (one of my favorites, e.g., for measurable selection) was all based heavily on measure theory; and his work on CART started by trying to get fits and predictive models starting with complicated data from clinical medicine. So, here again, some pressing practical problems in practical medicine led Breiman to CART which is now one of the main pillars of AI. Given that background, the CMU CS AI program should welcome the level of contact with real problems I described without your concern about the death of pure research.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#324

I really do not like this move. AI and Machine Learning require graduate-level mathematical and computational skills. I don't think it's productive to pretend that we can train someone to be even remotely useful in these fields in four years of an undergraduate education. It sounds like an attempt to get around the fundamentals of csci to "skip to the interesting bits," which will produce graduates with a cursory kno…

This is completely untrue - machine learning is largely undergraduate mathematics - in fact a lot of the linear algebra is commonly taught in high school. Definitely agree it's potentially narrow, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Linear algebra, some calculus and probability theory

Being a practitioner for Deep Learning, the bar is actually lower than being a proficient, compiler or database programmer.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine graduating now with an undergrad in big data--that sounded like a good idea 5 years ago. Is that a good analogy? Big data started out as a marketing buzzword, whereas AI always was an academic field of research.

AI is a very overloaded term. What we currently call "AI" is likely suffering from the same hype bubble that big data did.

And yet, most of today's commercial AI requires "big data".

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did my undergrad in CS at CMU, and have first-hand experience of what’s covered in the core courses, which are also requirements for this new program. Perhaps you should take a look at the curriculum again like I told you, instead of spewing out falsehoods like “churning out candidates who don’t know what tcp is”. You’re not entitled to your own facts.

At CMU you took no courses in operating systems? Algorithms? Computer hardware or logic? Compilers? Graphics? Databases? Web programming? Distributed systems? Networks? Parallel/HPC? Language theory? Security/crypto? Because these students will take none of these courses, they will differ significantly from those with a BS in CS. But their AI skills still won't run deep enough to make them expert there either. At bes…

> At CMU you took no courses in operating systems? Algorithms? Computer hardware or logic? Compilers? Graphics? Databases? Web programming? Distributed systems? Networks? Parallel/HPC? Language theory? Security/crypto?

The core that's required in both programs (15-122, 15-128, 15-150, 15-210, 15-213, and 15-251) is very broad and touches pretty much all of those areas. To be clear, hardware design isn't covered there, but the (x86-64) programmer's side of memory management and the CPU is covered well.

Other than algorithms, dedicated courses in all of those areas are offered as electives and you pick some of them. I recall taking OS, security, digital design / RTL (which was actually in the ECE department), web, and logic - but I could have subbed OS with Parallel/HPC, for example. The BS in CS curriculum[1] requires enough free and area electives that students gain depth in several of those areas.

> Because these students will take none of these courses, they will differ significantly from those with a BS in CS.

The BS in AI curriculum[2] only requires two CS-wide electives, so students in that program will indeed have depth in fewer of the areas. This is why these students will receive BS in AI degrees, to differentiate them from those who receive BS in CS degrees. I think you're in agreement with CMU's decision here?

That said, with the broad base of the core classes like 15-213 and the second half of 15-210, plus implementation details covered in the AI/ML courses, I'm sure no graduate of that program would struggle with HPC, networking, or DB/sysadmin in the workplace, or in a graduate program in AI.

Ultimately, there's only so much you can fit into four years, but I'd bet it would be easier for someone from this new program to deepen their skills in those areas, than it would be for most BS in CS graduates to add ML skills.

[1] https://csd.cs.cmu.edu/academic/undergraduate/bachelors-curr... [2] https://www.cs.cmu.edu/bs-in-artificial-intelligence/curricu...

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#327
post #216

I really do not like this move. AI and Machine Learning require graduate-level mathematical and computational skills. I don't think it's productive to pretend that we can train someone to be even remotely useful in these fields in four years of an undergraduate education. It sounds like an attempt to get around the fundamentals of csci to "skip to the interesting bits," which will produce graduates with a cursory kno…

This is a lie that I hear a lot from AI/ML experts. To me it reeks of gatekeeping. Yes the foundations of the field and many of the breakthroughs require this knowledge, but one can be a very effective practicioner of AI/ML techniques with a few years of undergraduate level instruction. And given how many industries are kicking the tires of AI/ML, we're going to need hordes of practicioners.

I agree it is lie, In my second year of undergraduate degree we looked at artificial intelligence, at least in the UK, you don't need more than first year mathematics to study and understand AI/ML.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#329
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the way computer science emerged from EE is totally distinct to what’s happening right now. CS eventually abstracted away all of the electrical engineering aspects of the discipline and as a result you need no knowledge of digital logic design to study computer science. AI/ML I don’t think will ever be this way; you will always need CS knowledge in order to experiment/run/optimize your algorithms.

Maybe! But I can foresee a future where this is not the case. I can imagine an electrical engineer in 1955 saying the same thing about software.

So I thought about that scenario, I just don't think an EE can reasonably say that circuit design is necessary to understanding assembly programming. Further, by the time CS departments were created, it was definitely obvious that CS was distinct from EE, at this point I definitely don't think it's obvious that AI/ML will ever be distinct fields from computer science.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#330

I really do not like this move. AI and Machine Learning require graduate-level mathematical and computational skills. I don't think it's productive to pretend that we can train someone to be even remotely useful in these fields in four years of an undergraduate education. It sounds like an attempt to get around the fundamentals of csci to "skip to the interesting bits," which will produce graduates with a cursory kno…

In my opinion, seeing that nobody actually understands the fundamentals of why the techniques used in ML/AI seem to work, it matters less that a researcher is not armed in the practice of complex mathematics.

I suppose there is a use for precisely describing things that we do not actually understand, but I don't think it is a pre-requisite, at this early infant stage in ML/AI.

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