A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#461

Post by Zarath » Thu, May 10, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

yosito wrote: post #81

Pretend you're a woman and then read the comments on this post. That makes it pretty obvious that one of the reasons women have a hard time feeling welcome in tech is because men don't listen to or empathize with them when they speak about their opinions or perspectives.

Why doesn't she try empathizing with men before basically telling us that it's our problem and that we need to change? If women are so much more "pro-social" than men, maybe they need to use their skills to fix the problem, instead of "anti-social" men going and trying to fix the problem.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#462

Post by geebee » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #230

leshow wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't they pay about as much as the male dominated jobs? brickmason, drywall installation, crane operator, roofer, etc All of these jobs have 95%+ males. I can't imagine they pay very well. That's genuinely a question, not trying to be smart. It seems to me like jobs on both ends of the spectrum might not pay the best.

Stonemason - $42,370 - https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472022.htm Drywall/Ceiling tile installer - $49,250 - https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472081.htm Crane and Tower Operators - $55,690 - https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes537021.htm LPN - $45,030 - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/licensed-practical-and-li... !Requires licensure Social Worker - $47,980 - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/community-and-social-service…

You did leave out nursing.

https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-nurse/...

Interestingly, nursing salaries are very high in San Francisco - avg salary is $136,610 a year. This is for registered nurses.

Software developers make more money on average than nurses

https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope...

However, interestingly, in top paying cities, the BLS data (which this is based on) has them earning a bit less than registered nurses, though I'm not sure if this includes variable pay.

There are a lot of factors here that prevent an apples-to-apples comparison. Anyone can declare him or herself to be a software developer, whereas it is illegal to do this if you're a registered nurse without formal credentials (actually, take a look at most "top jobs" and you'll find software developer is somewhat rare in that it requires no formal credential). At the same time, people with advanced degrees in nursing typically earn more than registered nurses and don't show up in the stats, whereas people with grad degrees in STEM fields may hold the title "software developer".

Nursing is also a tough field, but I do think there is more job stability and less age discrimination.

Overall, there's plenty to recommend it. A programmer myself, I'd be very happy if my son or daughter expressed a greater interest in nursing than programming, though I certainly wouldn't discourage them in either case.

One thing that I always feel strange about here is that I don't consider software development to be as attractive as many people here do... that may not be a coincidence. The images in this essay may explain why - even the positive one, that shows a better than average breakdown at google, doesn't contain anyone near my age (how many people in that picture do you think need to leave by 5pm to pick their kids up from daycare?).

My life experience has taught the value of longevity in a career choice, and software has some really serious shortcomings.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#463

Post by everdrive » Thu, May 10, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

yosito wrote: post #359

everdrive wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is dead on. To be honest, girls can get creeped out whether I have platonic intent or not. Part of what defines a guy as "creepy" is the mere fact of whether or not he's reading a girl's signals correctly. This can be problematic, since it doesn't necessarily follow that failing to read a girl's boundaries correctly means I have anything other than platonic intent. This can be circumvented for sure, but my usual…

> it doesn't necessarily follow that failing to read a girl's boundaries correctly means I have anything other than platonic intent Failing to read a _woman's_ boundaries correctly may not say anything about your intentions, but intentions don't matter if you're violating someone's boundaries. People shouldn't make excuses for not reading other's boundaries, they should learn to read other's boundaries and if they're…

>People shouldn't make excuses for not reading other's boundaries

This statement doesn't hold up on its own --- boundaries are not always clearly marked, nor are everyone's boundaries compatible, or even fair.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#464

Post by mikeleeorg » Thu, May 10, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #279

mikeleeorg wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this not as a consequence of the #metoo movement and more of a consequence of the lack of social intelligence & skills education. Because it IS entirely possible to befriend a women and not come across creepy, regardless of your physical appearance. As the author mentioned, girls tend to "engage in more prosocial behaviors" than boys. This means teenage and college-age men - especially those who gravitate towar…

Because it IS entirely possible to befriend a women and not come across creepy, regardless of your physical appearance. This is very highly dependent on perceived relative status. I remember just standing in an entryway literally doing and saying absolutely nothing, watching a woman melt down into delusion and accuse me of being a creeper. If you can be mistaken to be a homeless person, it's a lot more likely. If you…

Very true. And there are cultural and ethnic biases to this too.

I still see people who are able to bridge these divides and still establish rapports, if not acquaintanceships.

Friendships/acquaintanceships are also two-way streets. Some people will have a very difficult time forming such bonds, no matter how socially intelligent the other party is, regardless of gender.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#465

Post by Gibbon1 » Thu, May 10, 2018, 10:12 PM UTC

heyyyouu wrote: post #319

I think the author may really be onto something here. I have teenage and twenty-something daughters. My youngest is very excited about her stats minor but when I suggested computer science to her the horror that crossed her face...like it was a personal insult. Another one is into math and science and also wouldn't consider CS if her life depended on it -- physics or chemical engineering, sure, but never CS. Both do…

> physics or chemical engineering, sure, but never CS.

I think ultimately a career in real engineering field would be easier and more satisfying to your daughters than CS. Because CS is thick with toxic lord of the flies man child's at this point.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#466

Post by dennis_jeeves » Thu, May 10, 2018, 10:22 PM UTC

poke111 wrote: post #362

dennis_jeeves wrote: post #340

Here is the politically incorrect view, most people at the high end of the IQ are men. Like it or not, nature is not egalitarian. Why is this so f *ing complicated? Programming as a profession roughly falls under the high IQ spectrum. Ok, now some of you egalitarian nuts reading this _will_ interpret what I wrote as discriminatory, _waits for the backlash_

source?

poke111, I looked at your other posts and I belive you really needn't be convinced with a source as such.( if by source you meant a research paper) I noticed that you have already figured out that there differences in IQ among races. Anyway - my 'source' is my observation over the years, the smartest people that I'm aware of, both among developers or otherwise are disproportionately male. As a corollary some dumbest people are also disproportionately male. Never in my circle of acquaintances have I seen women being discriminated solely based on their gender. Infact I have on occasions seen a clear discrimination against men. I did do a quick search to see if there were research papers on the subject, I could not find it. The few that I could find did not show significant differences. Now ofcourse the broader question to ask is, do we take main stream science at it's word always, ? No, is my answer. A large proportion of mainstream science is biased and rigged. I have heard/read that any research paper that shows difference in IQ among genders or race is unlikely to be published by journals.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#467

Post by mikeleeorg » Thu, May 10, 2018, 10:55 PM UTC

gnulinux wrote: post #316

mikeleeorg wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this not as a consequence of the #metoo movement and more of a consequence of the lack of social intelligence & skills education. Because it IS entirely possible to befriend a women and not come across creepy, regardless of your physical appearance. As the author mentioned, girls tend to "engage in more prosocial behaviors" than boys. This means teenage and college-age men - especially those who gravitate towar…

> Because it IS entirely possible to befriend a women and not come across creepy, regardless of your physical appearance. This depends on a lot more than your social abilities such your the way you look and your social status, none of which can be changed easily.

If you are referring to ethnicity, than yes, I definitely agree. If you are referring to your clothes, then yes, there are definitely cultural biases (e.g. reactions to burkas).

With that said, I still do see some people (albeit rarely) still find a way to bridge the gap using what seems like infinite patience and grace on their part (which I would say are part of social intelligence).

But even then, there are people who will always allow their implicit biases come to the surface, no matter how graceful you are.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#468

Post by manicdee » Fri, May 11, 2018, 12:05 AM UTC

phlakaton wrote: post #380

manicdee wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual power politics land starts in the grey line between saying hello in the morning and giving someone unwanted attention.

There is a massive, massive gulf between the two. Unless there's something weird about how you say it?

Or you remind them of some who has assaulted them in the past (by looks, posture, attitude, language, etc).

I have a hard time simply coping with people being behind me, much less attempting to interact with me without first entering my forward field of view.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#469

Post by phlakaton » Fri, May 11, 2018, 12:22 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #407

phlakaton wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how often do you think this happens--where there is an accusation with absolutely no basis in reality? What data do you have to back this up? Would you really cast out all women from your professional circles because of it? Sheesh. Men talk about how aggrieved they are in this new world of transparency and accusation. This transparency has come about because many women have been subject to some really, truly awfu…

And how often do you think this happens--where there is an accusation with absolutely no basis in reality? From what I have seen, it happens fairly often. Would you really cast out all women from your professional circles because of it? What!? Strawman much? Put words into another's mouth much? Sheesh! Let me tell you this. I was pretty much a butthead (lowercase b) in my 20's. The older I get, the stupider 20-someth…

You're right, taken out of context this would be a strawman. But you responded in the context of someone explaining why making friends with women in the workplace, in this day and age, is just too risky a proposition. Your critique is in support of _that_ mentality, and it's _that_ mentality that I'm arguing against.

You say this isn't about men vs. women. But specifically, all of this is in response to (what I assume is) a man refusing to make friends with a woman, because of whatever politics they think currently govern _that_ specific dynamic in the workplace. It _is_ what this is about, fundaments be damned.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#470

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, May 11, 2018, 12:26 AM UTC

manicdee wrote: post #468

phlakaton wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a massive, massive gulf between the two. Unless there's something weird about how you say it?

Or you remind them of some who has assaulted them in the past (by looks, posture, attitude, language, etc). I have a hard time simply coping with people being behind me, much less attempting to interact with me without first entering my forward field of view.

That took me three times reading it to get right.

To avoid anyone else misunderstanding: That's "remind by looks, posture, etc", rather than "assaulted by looks, posture, etc".