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Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

cs.cmu.edu

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Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#251

Post by freyir »

jknoepfler wrote: post #164

I really do not like this move. AI and Machine Learning require graduate-level mathematical and computational skills. I don't think it's productive to pretend that we can train someone to be even remotely useful in these fields in four years of an undergraduate education. It sounds like an attempt to get around the fundamentals of csci to "skip to the interesting bits," which will produce graduates with a cursory kno…

> AI and Machine Learning require graduate-level mathematical and computational skills

Yeah, not really. A lot of day-to-day work in ML requires rudimentary math, at most. I know PhDs who quickly get discouraged with ML because they're suddenly spending 95% of their time doing the grunt work. It would be a boon if we could hire non-PhDs who are competent in the fundamentals of signals, algorithms, statistics, and experiment design.

If you're aspiring to work in ML, what major do you choose now? Statistics? EE? CS? Math?

None of these are ideal. If you're doing CS, you're probably too busy with compilers or DB courses to get a proper education in signal processing, information theory, stochastic processes, etc. If you're in EE, you're too busy soldering circuits and to learn about data structures, algorithms, or software engineering courses. There's a lot of room for improvement here.

Even at the graduate level, most of our EE interns and new hires can't solve FizzBuzz, while the CS majors can't properly design a scientific experiment to save their lives.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#252

Post by learc83 »

fixermark wrote: post #169
learc83 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>CMU doesn't generally craft their degrees for industry-marketability; I don't think a CS degree should be a trade program, but avoiding actively harming students job prospects by adding a few more electives isn't quite the same things as crafting their degrees for industry-marketability. >they tore out functional programming above 15-150 I'm looking at the requirements for the BS in CS right now. I don't see any fun…

I stand corrected: since I took the curriculum, functional programming requirements seem to have been substituted with an option to do higher-level systems-engineering electives (such as 15-414). And the systems elective has been expanded to include parallel and distributed systems. The key difference on the deep-theory side is that CS and AI appear to swap out deep-diving into discrete math for deep-diving into stat…

>The key difference on the deep-theory side is that CS and AI appear to swap out deep-diving into discrete math for deep-diving into statistics and statistical modeling. I'd consider those different enough to warrant separate degree tracks, personally.

What discrete math classes were removed from the AI degree?

>(Your opinion of networking is noted but I do not share it, being somewhat familiar with what that course asks of students. It's every bit as preparatory as its sibling 15-410 class ;) ).

I looked over the syllabus and assignments for a section of that class. It looks like a bog standard networking class (bog standard for top tier schools that is). It's an elective. You can take an OS class, a compilers class, or a networking class. I don't think there is some intersection of knowledge/skill between those 3 classes, the absence of which would give higher-learning institutions pause.

My institution required that you take both an OS and a networking class before being admitted for graduate study. It's one thing if they require OS, and networking, and compilers. That they don't do that says to me that they don't consider them critical classes, since any given graduate could be missing any 2 of them.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#253

Post by srinivasan »

aje403 wrote: post #179
srinivasan wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did my undergrad in CS at CMU, and have first-hand experience of what’s covered in the core courses, which are also requirements for this new program. Perhaps you should take a look at the curriculum again like I told you, instead of spewing out falsehoods like “churning out candidates who don’t know what tcp is”. You’re not entitled to your own facts.

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/bs-in-artificial-intelligence/curricu... I see an Introduction to Computer Systems course which looks like the only thing that could potentially teach networking, but from looking at the curriculum, it does not. Can you please find the course on this list that teaches networking, even if it isn't in-depth?

15-213 Introduction to Computer Systems is the one. Anyone who passed that class knows what context switching means, and what TCP is.

Whether they still remember it many years down the line is a different matter :)

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#254

Post by gowld »

zawazzi wrote: post #177
jknoepfler wrote: post #164

I really do not like this move. AI and Machine Learning require graduate-level mathematical and computational skills. I don't think it's productive to pretend that we can train someone to be even remotely useful in these fields in four years of an undergraduate education. It sounds like an attempt to get around the fundamentals of csci to "skip to the interesting bits," which will produce graduates with a cursory kno…

> I'm not fundamentally opposed, but I think this is akin to creating a "Condensed Matter and Nanophysics" undergraduate degree alongside "Physics." Isn't this what Material Science is? A truncated version of physics for those with a greater interest in application than theory. Arguably most engineering derives from hard science that is converted into a form that is more easily applied.

Materials Science sounds more general than "Condensed Matter and Nanophysics", but akin to AI, which fits your larger point.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#255

Post by gowld »

evrydayhustling wrote: post #213
inputcoffee wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

okay, that is in theory. Here is the syllabus: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/bs-in-artificial-intelligence/curricu... Do you think any part of that is unreasonable or putting the cart before the horse?

They did a good job on this syllabus. Something had to give, and it is math and engineering depth. No 300 or 400 level courses, like networking or OS. Skipping some close to the metal stuff is probably fine, but I am surprised not to see at least some distributed computing or systems engineering skills. I'd be concerned that a grad could work well within an ideal data env but would get blocked by not being able to en…

I've worked with brilliant statisticians would not be able to engineer processing pipelines.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#256

Post by srinivasan »

learc83 wrote: post #249
srinivasan wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15-210: Parallel and Sequential Data Structures and Algorithms, which is still required, is purely functional.

That class is also required for the AI degree.

That's actually what I meant, but used the wrong phrasing - I can't edit it, unfortunately.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#257

Post by mepian »

joshuamorton wrote: post #234
triska wrote: post #146

Personally, I find the lack of logic programming, and logic in general, a rather notable property of the outlined curriculum. In fact, "logic" is nowhere explicitly mentioned in the course titles. Neither are "formal" and "method". For comparison, at the department of AI in Edinburgh, Prolog was very important and even actively developed to such an extent that current Prolog systems are still hugely influenced by "Ed…

>Also, theorem proving is an important area of computer science with many connections to AI. I think this is only true if you use a different definition of AI than the one likely used here. Expert systems aren't considered to be very effective tools for useful "AI" anymore. You can't define a procedure to recognize a happy face in logic programming, at least not with any degree of efficiency.

Is recognizing happy faces the only use for AI? Who redefined AI to solely mean Machine Learning and excluded everything else that defined it before the AI winter?

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#258

Post by gowld »

Retric wrote: post #175
jknoepfler wrote: post #164

I really do not like this move. AI and Machine Learning require graduate-level mathematical and computational skills. I don't think it's productive to pretend that we can train someone to be even remotely useful in these fields in four years of an undergraduate education. It sounds like an attempt to get around the fundamentals of csci to "skip to the interesting bits," which will produce graduates with a cursory kno…

Most CS programs have a lot of filler from the Math department and various other places. Your third semester of Calculus for example. So, I think their is plenty of room for 6-8+ AI focused classes which would get you reasonably far. Especially if it's a comprehensive major that covers both Major and Minor requirements.

The CMU AI degree includes 3rd-semester calculus: one course each of numerical integration and linear algebra.

It cuts out the hardware/OS/compilers/networking part in order to make room for a very wide "minor" in AI.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#259

Post by gowld »

fooker wrote: post #190
beojan wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Line / surface / volume integrals are certainly a jump from one-variable integrals.

Not a big jump, if you conceptually stick to the 'area under curve' definition. Analytically computing surface/volume integrals, yes, that is a big jump. But I don't understand why students need to memorize N algorithms and M substitution rules for that.

Sure, and AI isn't a big jump from statistics.

Re: Carnegie Mellon Launches Undergraduate Degree in Artificial Intelligence

#260

Post by matthewbauer »

habosa wrote: post #216
jknoepfler wrote: post #164

I really do not like this move. AI and Machine Learning require graduate-level mathematical and computational skills. I don't think it's productive to pretend that we can train someone to be even remotely useful in these fields in four years of an undergraduate education. It sounds like an attempt to get around the fundamentals of csci to "skip to the interesting bits," which will produce graduates with a cursory kno…

This is a lie that I hear a lot from AI/ML experts. To me it reeks of gatekeeping. Yes the foundations of the field and many of the breakthroughs require this knowledge, but one can be a very effective practicioner of AI/ML techniques with a few years of undergraduate level instruction. And given how many industries are kicking the tires of AI/ML, we're going to need hordes of practicioners.

I don’t think it is actually gatekeeping because no one is saying that you CAN’T do AI/ML with this degree just that there is going to be a tradeoff in any curriculum focusing on a subset of CS.

A consequence of this degree is that it makes CS degrees worth less. Because AI/ML is by definition a subset of CS, this degree implies that you have CS + more. It doesn’t fairly show that there is a tradeoff in a specialized curriculum (less exposure to other areas of CS).

I would say that if you are at CMU or another school offering this degree, you would be a fool not to do it. Even if you are not interested in AI/ML, it will be more hirable than CS because the name implies it is “better” than a CS degree. It’s a similar situation with the new “cybersecurity” degrees being offered. Ideally the accreditation group would bring some sense into this but so far they have greenlit both degrees.

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