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The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

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231–240 of 299 posts

Re: The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

#231
post #39

> Only a few years ago, even people who hated ads saw ad-blocking software as akin to stealing. I've been using ad blockers and NoScript plugins for longer than I can remember. Before that I was using /etc/hosts file based blocking. I've never felt like I was stealing nor do I know anyone that feels that way. On the contrary, I've always felt that content to display, and in particular code to execute, on my device is…

> nor do I know anyone that feels that way. That’d be me (kinda): I used to make exception for web comics I subscribed to and other websites I visited regularly, using adblocker only for browsing the random internet at large. Until looking for group served a malware. So now everything gets blocked. So I would probably put myself into the “understands ads are your revenue and once upon a time was permissive” category.

don't most web comics have patreon these days or some other form of donation or merchandise you can buy to alleviate your guilt?

Re: The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

#232
post #200
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could argue that web users with adblockers are rejecting these agreements by refusing to HTTP GET the linked ad content and that the sites are accepting the modified terms if they subsequently serve the requested non-ad content.

Yep, that'd be a reasonable case to make. Although the site could simply augment its terms with "Serving the content any way does not represent a change in terms; proceeding to consume our content remains in violation" to clarify.

[deleted]

Re: The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

#233
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so you agree that in the absolute majority of cases users have no legal obligation whatsoever to watch ads, but you're interested in a hypothetical website that has constructive notice for terms of service that specifically include language which says users must watch ads. All right, let's discuss that. In this case, even though the contract itself is enforcable, it does not necessarily follow that every clause…

> Okay, so you agree that in the absolute majority of cases users have no legal obligation whatsoever to watch ads, but you're interested in a hypothetical website that has constructive notice for terms of service that specifically include language which says users must watch ads. All right, let's discuss that. I'm not sure exactly how hypothetical it is - I see websites doing this now. But yes, this is what i'm talk…

> I think you can answer this question yourself :). This happens all the time in real world contracts. Some unforeseen, unspecified circumstances crop up, and an arbiter or judge decides whether and to what extent they fall under the existing terms. My personal opinion is that if this happened and it was a condition not explicitly spelled out in the terms, it would not be a breach. Because you basically acted in good faith, and factors beyond your control prohibited you from complying.

It's easy to invent more complex issues that render the enforcability of the contract suspect. For instance, I use NoScript. If your ToS notice relies on JS, as most of them do, I won't even see it. Have I agreed to the contract? What if my browser is configured in such a way that I can't see your ad, but I haven't specifically blocked it? Were the precise technical requirements explicitly stated in your ToS? If not, how would I even know how to comply? Even if your legal system recognizes such clauses, they are utterly unenforcable as a matter of fact, if not as a matter of law.

> I think the basic moral principle is this: You create a thing. You say to the world "Hey world, i'll let you consume my thing, if you do this other thing". The world has the right to say "No thanks, we don't want your thing, because the other thing is too onerous". They do not have the right to say "The other thing is too onerous, but we're going to take your thing anyway, thanks."

It's certainly a moral principle, but I doubt you'd find many people who would agree that principle supersedes every other consideration. Even in the crazy world of the U.S. legal system, copyrights and patents have limitations and expirations. If you create a thing and publish it, you certainly have a limited say in what happens to it, but you don't get to dictate terms in perpetuity and at whim, nor should you. In a society that prioritizes the rights of creators to the exclusion of everything else inventions have very little value.

In fact, one could argue that in the case of websites we care so (comparatively) little about the public interest precisely because most websites offer little of significant value.

Re: The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

#234
post #3

Is it me, or is pi hole way more popular than it should be? Compared to the alternatives, it's worse in almost every way. It only works on your local network, so good luck blocking ads while you're at work, using mobile data, or at a cafe. Browser based adblockers (which is available on most desktop browsers, mobile safari, and firefox for android) can block elements and url patterns, pi hole can't. Even if you're on…

I do what pi-hole does using pfBlockerNG, a package available for pfSense, which my home router runs.

But I still combine it with a browser-based ad blocker. It's worth doing both, because the network-based blocker will also block other LAN devices connecting to tracking servers, increasingly important in this IoT age.

According to my router's stats, the most blocked sites are:

device-metrics-us.amazon.com e.crashlytics.com ssl.google-analytics.com www.googletagservices.com www.google-analytics.com nexus.officeapps.live.com api.stathat.com www.googleadservices.com

Re: The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

#235
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah :). > And I am also a pretty religious reader of slate star codex :). So am I! > > not even sure if i believe it, but makes for a good tussle So are you now more, or less sure if you believe it?

> So are you now more, or less sure if you believe it? Haha well....I'm not sure i'm any closer to an answer, other than of course that the label 'theft' is slippery and labeling something "theft" or "not theft" is kind of meaningless [0] (except insofar as the whole prison thing is concerned - it's kind of meaningful there). It is theft in the sense that something has been taken from someone under conditions other t…

> of course that the label 'theft' is slippery and labeling something "theft" or "not theft" is kind of meaningless [0] (except insofar as the whole prison thing is concerned - it's kind of meaningful there). It is theft in the sense that something has been taken from someone under conditions other than those they specified.

The label "theft" is not like the label "feesh". Words carry weight beyond the category to which the refer.

If I say "You're an asshole! (btw, by 'asshole' I mean anyone who enjoys arguing on the internet)".

That is not the same as saying "You're a genius! (btw, by 'genius' I mean anyone who enjoys arguing on the internet)".

When you choose to use an morally (and legally) loaded term, you are doing more than just opening up a pointless semantics debate, you are striving for an emotional impact.

Why would you choose to use such a loaded term as "stealing", rather than the more clear and accurate term "breaking contract" when that much more clearly describes what you mean?

Re: The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

#236
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would consider this contract to be more "legal" if it contained the other side of the equation: By looking at the ads and executing the code we download to your computer, our site assumes full responsibility for the code, ads and content, and will reimburse you for any damage (physical, material, emotional) caused to you by the software we serve. We will not blame it on the "ad network", or "ad exchange" or a "goog…

And as a consumer of content, it is absolutely within your rights to only frequent websites that have that clause.

You seem to consider the consumer the only “agent” — they have to make the decision on what sites to visit, they have to comply with the terms of the implicit agreement... what are the obligations of the publisher?

Re: The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

#237
post #44
post #39

> Only a few years ago, even people who hated ads saw ad-blocking software as akin to stealing. I've been using ad blockers and NoScript plugins for longer than I can remember. Before that I was using /etc/hosts file based blocking. I've never felt like I was stealing nor do I know anyone that feels that way. On the contrary, I've always felt that content to display, and in particular code to execute, on my device is…

Do you not believe that content creators have the right to set the terms upon which their content may be consumed? In other words, if you write an article, you don't believe that you have the right to say "you may read this article, provided that you also display this ad"? If you don't want to see the ad, simply don't read the article. What makes you think you have the right to the content, without abiding its terms?…

Do you not believe that content creators have the right to set the terms upon which their content may be consumed?

Sure, if they’re on a private network. If you’re broadcasting though, hell no. It would be like a tv network demanding that you don’t use a DVR because it lets you skip ads. If you want the benefits of broadcasting to the open web, you’ve already tacitly agreed to let people consume that the way they see fit. You don’t get to set the volume of their audio, or anything else, including what gets displayed.

Re: The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

#238

Personally I have no problems with ads per se , it's the tracking, privacy, and security aspect I'm concerned about (and also the unbelievable bloatedness of ad-financed sites lately as ad prices race to the bottom). Personally I'd be fine with ads if we could go back to a content-oriented model where first-party static assets are served as ads rather than the targeted advertising we have now. I know others here who…

it's the tracking, privacy, and security aspect I'm concerned about And that's what ads are, per se , in the 21st century. "Ads", as the current implementation defines it from my perspective, are no longer general-purpose and static. No, they chase you around the web and then for weeks will try to sell you the thing you just purchased. They'll load random executable code onto your machine. I, too, have no problem wit…

And websites can sell static JPG ads that are impossible to block.

Re: The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

#239
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I think if creators release their content in the world it becomes the world's. If you want to set terms rent a shed in the Nevada desert, charge admission, and make people leave their phones outside. The idea that there are "terms" when there's never even been a negotiation is absurd.

> No, I think if creators release their content in the world it becomes the world's. If you want to set terms rent a shed in the Nevada desert, charge admission, and make people leave their phones outside. The law disagrees. Intellectual property is a real thing. You can argue that it shouldn't be, but it is. Releasing something into the world doesn't mean that you no longer own it. > The idea that there are "terms"…

It seems you missed reading about the royalties you'd owe for quoting my HN comments. It's all in my Comment Usage TOS. If you'd found them you'd know that there are fees associated with quoting my comments. But no worries, since you have such a clear understanding of things I'm sure you realize that you've stolen $500 from me and violated my Comment Usage TOS. Please pay up.

I'm really glad we had this negotiation, by the way.

Re: The Brotherhood of the Ad Blockers

#240
post #39

> Only a few years ago, even people who hated ads saw ad-blocking software as akin to stealing. I've been using ad blockers and NoScript plugins for longer than I can remember. Before that I was using /etc/hosts file based blocking. I've never felt like I was stealing nor do I know anyone that feels that way. On the contrary, I've always felt that content to display, and in particular code to execute, on my device is…

Even worse, associating blocking ads as something akin to stealing is morally bankrupt. It's an incredibly slippery slope that leads to complete loss of autonomy for individuals. If I refuse to read roadside billboards, am I now stealing? If I tear up newspaper ads and throw them away, am I now stealing? If I turn off my tv during ads on a cable show, am I now stealing? I think any sane person would definitively say…

Yes.

Frankly, if the ADS have real value, and yes that is entirely possible to do, people won't block them anywhere near the level of concern.

Self selection will improve performance too.

An example I saw play out, and had a small hand in was an auto shop doing political ADS. They combined great advocacy and informed people, leaving their business info low key in there somewhere.

The returns on those were excellent. People actually considered them a part of the programs, and radio station identity.

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