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Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

bbc.com

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Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#111

Post by ekianjo »

danharaj wrote: post #55
ekianjo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a case of basic human rights. There's no such things as "human rights standards" for how much you should work per week. For most of human history people lived in abject misery and precariousness and in comparison 72 hours a week and most folks having all the comfort of modern city life is not as bad as it sounds like.

There were periods in medieval history when a typical peasant only worked ~150 days out of the year. While you are right that life was difficult, your sense of the past is warped to the point of caricature.

yeah and they had nothing to eat at all some years if the harvest was bad, and no medical care and most people died in their 30s. So, which scenario do you prefer?

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#112

Post by ekianjo »

GW150914 wrote: post #53
ekianjo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a case of basic human rights. There's no such things as "human rights standards" for how much you should work per week. For most of human history people lived in abject misery and precariousness and in comparison 72 hours a week and most folks having all the comfort of modern city life is not as bad as it sounds like.

You’re not wrong, but for most of human history I could declare that you offended me and challenge you to fight to the death. “Most of human history” is a bad standard and is essentially hypocritical to raise selectively. People don’t compare their lives to those of ancient barbarians, they look around themselves today and they look to the future. Few people will be convinced by the argument that they have it better…

> “Most of human history” is a bad standard and is essentially hypocritical to raise selectively.

I made that point because someone referred to "human rights" when it comes to working hours. There is just no such thing and there has never been.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#113

Post by ben509 »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #100
merpnderp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-preservation is the most selfish thing you can be centered on, and it is absolutely ethically and morally correct. Being self-centered is what makes free markets successful, as in pitting your self interests against others, brings out the most productive aspects of everyone involved.

Except by that standard, me pouring waste in the river, instead of paying to have it properly disposed is "ethically and morally correct."

But you have neighbors downstream who will object to your contaminants polluting their use of the water. Externalities can be efficiently resolved by applying the Coase theorem.[1] Another common objection is that there are certain public services that can only be provided by the state, but we often find in practice that self-interested parties can develop a business model that addresses those needs.[2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem [2] http://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=757

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#114

Post by [deleted] »

1_800_UNICORN wrote: post #33

Very interesting article, but I was disappointed that the article stated that the millenial only-children of China are "outspoken", "pampered", or "self-centered". I don't believe that any of those terms apply to people who are fighting against working 72 hours per week for low pay. This is a case of basic human rights. The words that come to mind to describe the folks who are fighting this fight are "proud", "resili…

[deleted]

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#115

Post by stcredzero »

Sangermaine wrote: post #48
1_800_UNICORN wrote: post #33

Very interesting article, but I was disappointed that the article stated that the millenial only-children of China are "outspoken", "pampered", or "self-centered". I don't believe that any of those terms apply to people who are fighting against working 72 hours per week for low pay. This is a case of basic human rights. The words that come to mind to describe the folks who are fighting this fight are "proud", "resili…

It's nice to see that however much America and China might be at odds, they can apparently agree on attacking their young people as lazy and entitled.

As standards of living and society itself improves, dire necessity decreases, and the proportion of the population motivated by necessity decreases. As general wealth increases, the more the general populace feels entitled.

Right now, you may well feel more or less entitled to a flush toilet and the ability to access all of the world's information in your pocket. In years past, these things were luxuries. Most of you reading this: Almost everything in your sight was once a luxury.

So here's the thing: You are lazy and entitled. That is both a good and bad thing. It's good, because it shows we have made progress. It's good, because you now have the time and resources to do something positive. Where it's bad, is that you also have the choice to do something positive with those time and resources, or not. Where it's bad, is that you will have a harder time understanding the magnitude of the sacrifices that got us where we are.

Your choice. It's up to you now.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#116

Post by withdavidli »

jsemrau wrote: post #27
eumenides1 wrote: post #11

“In my experience young people, especially the post-90s generation, are reluctant to work overtime – they are more self-centered,” says labour rights expert Li Jupeng, one of many who have observed some millennials challenging the 996 concept. self-centered is a funny word. It implies selfish, but is it really selfish if it's self-preservation?

Well, who "wants" to work overtime ? Most European work cultures survive well with a great work-life balance.

I know many people that are hourly that loves overtime. 1.5x-2x pay means a world of difference to them. Jobs for them ranges from drivers, construction, to programmers. Some are hoarding money for early retirement, just to make more, others are contract basis so earning 2-3x projected amount enables them to take half the year off.

This is to the point where many of these friends loathe to take an exempt job because they know their income will likely be cut in half on the initial transition without raises/promotions.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#117

Post by ben509 »

phyller wrote: post #102
jadedhacker wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it look like the workers own the means of production in China or is it a mix of government and private capitalists? If so, that's state and private capitalism. If the workers own the means of production it means they literally are the managers of the factories in a democratic fashion. You wouldn't see much useless overtime if that happened.

That is the joke. The communist government, that was supposed to liberate the people, created this situation. It didn't work like it was supposed to did it?

China is not communist, it's state socialism! No one has ever tried communism.

(Except that they obviously tried state socialism, which is supposed to be the precursor to socialism, which itself is a precursor to communism, but going through the precursor steps to communism doesn't count as trying communism because... reasons.)

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#118

Post by stronglikedan »

GW150914 wrote: post #53
ekianjo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a case of basic human rights. There's no such things as "human rights standards" for how much you should work per week. For most of human history people lived in abject misery and precariousness and in comparison 72 hours a week and most folks having all the comfort of modern city life is not as bad as it sounds like.

You’re not wrong, but for most of human history I could declare that you offended me and challenge you to fight to the death. “Most of human history” is a bad standard and is essentially hypocritical to raise selectively. People don’t compare their lives to those of ancient barbarians, they look around themselves today and they look to the future. Few people will be convinced by the argument that they have it better…

> I could declare that you offended me and challenge you to fight to the death.

You still can, but not death in the sense of your target ceasing to breathe, rather the death of everything they've worked for in life being violently ripped out from under them, such as their careers, by the court of public opinion. Still sad when it happens though.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#119

Post by smallnamespace »

yakuza00000 wrote: post #83
zanmat0 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll be surprised to find that many young Chinese people support their government and their hard-handed approach to social stability. I've notice that its a uniquely Western trend to apply our judgement on these issues and expect it to automatically be in line with the Chinese perspective.

Sure, and I'm sure you will find ardent supporters of North Korea regime, Hitler Germany, and Mao's regime. It's not a uniquely Western trend to want freedom, voting rights, and justice. It's also not uniquely Western to see the regime party members get super rich and get angry.

Are there non-Western peoples who want Western things? Sure, the West has been rich and powerful and dominated the world for the last 300 years. It would be incredible for other peoples to not try to emulate the West.

But I think you're underestimating the extent to which universalism is a Western metacognitive bias that other cultures don't necessarily share [1].

The idea that there is one universal set of rules that everyone in the world can and should agree on, based on logic and rational consideration, is not really shared by all other cultures.

The Chinese response that 'it may work for the West, but it's not for us', is not a specious cop-out (the Western response being typically what do you mean there are two sets of rules!?) but probably represents the honest opinion of a large fraction of the population.

That's even before we get to the end result of democratic elections in many countries, where dictators are who the people choose.

[1] https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c742/1acd7e63519d22458b5a65...

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#120

Post by danharaj »

ekianjo wrote: post #111
danharaj wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were periods in medieval history when a typical peasant only worked ~150 days out of the year. While you are right that life was difficult, your sense of the past is warped to the point of caricature.

yeah and they had nothing to eat at all some years if the harvest was bad, and no medical care and most people died in their 30s. So, which scenario do you prefer?

Ok, so now you're making an observation about medicine instead of hours of work. What exactly is your point here? Things are better now than they were in the past, so there's no reason why they should be better?
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