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California Votes to Require Rooftop Solar Power on New Homes

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Re: California Votes to Require Rooftop Solar Power on New Homes

#301
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dig a well instead?

A well is for fresh water while septic is for... well not so fresh water. I have considered doing the whole job myself (I mean how hard can digging with a backhoe be?!) and violating all the regulations that make is so expensive, but whether you dump your RV's holding tank into a protected water zone or install an illegal septic system, you are still dealing with the environmental health department and they won't be…

No shit. Digging a well, in addition to septic. 15k is fucking stupid for a septic tank but it's California. 5k for a well would be ridiculous as well.

So digging a well, would save over 5k for water, plus the monthly charges. I guess I should have specified. I thought saying "Dig a well" was relatively self explanatory in the fact it would likely save money not only in the short run but over the long run as well.

Re: California Votes to Require Rooftop Solar Power on New Homes

#302
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the hearing someone cited the numbers of $40 increase in mortgage cost and $80 of savings per month

But only if the current design of utility rates remains the same. But it won't, because utilities are regulated monopolies which are permitted to recoup the costs of their investments. So, they will lower the price of power during the day, and raise it during the night.

Residential electricity is less than half of the electricity used in California. Solar may slow down the electrical generation growth needs, but I doubt it will shut down any generators. (Except for some peak usage gas generators).

http://ecdms.energy.ca.gov/elecbyutil.aspx

Re: California Votes to Require Rooftop Solar Power on New Homes

#303
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>US the biggest CO2 polluter per capita Your statement, while true, did not refute his, FYI.

Being the second biggest polluter of CO2 pretty clearly refutes that “developing countries” are the biggest polluters. The US has a lot of problems, but I’m not sure I’d call it developing.

Remember how you responded to someone who was talking about the biggest polluters, and you couldn't attack that statement, so you changed it to biggest polluters per capita? That's where your logic failed.

Re: California Votes to Require Rooftop Solar Power on New Homes

#304
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm new to this HN thing so in an attempt to be "civil" I'll simply say I disagree with every single thing you said. The decision to implement California car emissions standards was not a heavy handed or half baked idea. The Rand corporation was called in to help figure out a solution other than catalytic converter and the ultimate decision was signed off by Ronald "not a fan of regulation" Reagan. Not only have ther…

> also there's this company called Tesla that has innovated and provided an alternative You can't really call Tesla an alternative to regular cars with a price point of $80K (plus options, plus taxes). I know there are people in Silicon Valley who have so much money that $80k is like pocket change to them, but even in SV that's a minority. In the meantime, I've bought a car for $2k several years ago and it still runs…

The conversation was about catalytic converter as an example a government mandated solution instead of a spec. Smartfortwo cars, Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, and Tesla products address the goal and bypass the spec. I was pointing out - maybe in too cheeky a way - the counter example that specs kill innovation.

Re: California Votes to Require Rooftop Solar Power on New Homes

#306
post #81
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds horrible to me for a number of reasons: * Increases the cost of homes * Gives solar power industry a boost in a way that's hard to get rid of--they will lobby to keep this even if other industries are around and it'll probably never change * No incentive to research new energy technology in the meantime

> Increases the cost of homes And decreases the energy bill by a very similar amount of what an increase in the mortgage would be if the cost was 100% passed on. Regardless, in much of California the price of homes has little to do with the cost of building them. So another possibility is buildable land gets a little cheaper because building is more expensive and homes are priced by what the market will bear, not by…

In most cases sure. But, there will always be corner cases, places where solar panels don't make economic sense.

Re: California Votes to Require Rooftop Solar Power on New Homes

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> must be retrofitted to have a net energy draw of zero or less from the grid How would you do this, when a huge percentage of that engergy draw comes from appliances that don't get sold with the house? What you're proposing would likely result in home sellers 'installing' tiny cheap refrigerators and washer/dryer combos that would immediately be thrown out by the home buyers and replaced with the ones they actually…

You could base it off of the size of the house or median usage of surrounding homes per square foot, or something similar.

That wouldn't change anything unless you require those tiny cheap appliances to be retained and used by the home buyer. You can't reduce all energy consumption with insulation and shade trees...

Re: California Votes to Require Rooftop Solar Power on New Homes

#308
post #299
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another trouble is the builder doesn't have to pay for the energy usage of the property, and there's no well-established way for the buyer to estimate consumption like there is with mpg.

Is there nothing similar to an EPC[1] in America? [1] https://www.gov.uk/buy-sell-your-home/energy-performance-cer...

Not really, but a letter grade is lacking a critical feature of mpg- anybody with a third-grade education can quickly estimate the exact gasoline costs of operating a prospective vehicle purchase. How do you translate a "B-" to dollars?

Re: California Votes to Require Rooftop Solar Power on New Homes

#309

Which states have the least regulations such as these? I would like to build an underground home that uses solar and inductive heating, but I would rather not have the technical details mandated.

Some states have no statewide building code at all --- Missouri is one example --- and some counties have not implemented one. You might also look into some of the more liberty-minded western states: Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, et cetera , where a lot of things like that are barely regulated.

Thankyou! In fact, Idaho and Montana were at the top of my list. I have been researching internet speeds in those states as well.

Re: California Votes to Require Rooftop Solar Power on New Homes

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a net financial win? Presumably, homeowners have been doing the math and adding solar panels if it is a net financial win. Now, homeowners are required to do it whether or not it's a net financial win. ie. the new solar installations either don't make economic sense, or it made sense all along, but homeowners were too stupid to do the math.

It didn't make sense all along. 10 years ago this would have been crazy because PV hardware was so much more expensive then. A lot of people do fail to do the math. Many people are not quantitatively analytical, even in situations where such analysis is in their material self-interest. A few years ago I encountered an engineer who was really angry about lightbulb minimum efficiency standards. "I already switched to L…

>It didn't make sense all along.

Let me rephrase.

What I mean is, "or it would make sense to do it, but homeowners will be too stupid to do the math." My hypothetical is about people who 1) would not install panels but 2) installing panels would be in their individual interest.

I agree that PV technology has improved in price/efficiency.

>Many people are not quantitatively analytical, even in situations where such analysis is in their material self-interest.

That's a fair point. You're entirely right - some people will not think about it. Some people will think about it but be wrong.

My intuition is that people are still better at making the the decision themselves than if the decision is made legislatively. Let me explain why.

Firstly, I'm skeptical of residential solar. Why? Installation costs (on average) 59 cents/watt. [1] This would be cheaper if it were on the ground rather than on a roof. There is lots of cheap land (assuming that you don't care that it's out in the boonies.) You could put solar panels there instead. However, there is an incentive to put solar panels on a roof: net metering. The utility must buy the residential solar, even if it's useless to them. I think that this is a misaligned incentive, and it might be more efficient to have huge fields of solar panels than to have solar panels on each house.

Second, this seems like something with limited political accountability. It seems like they could have created an alternate way of complying: pay the government enough money to build an equivalent amount of solar somewhere else. Then, you can remove the exception for shaded houses/tall buildings, because they have a non-stupid way of complying. This seems like it's better for everyone involved. However, it would then be clear how much money the policy costs, rather than "homes have gotten more expensive, but it's hard to pin down how much of that is caused by the policy and how much is other factors."

[1]: http://emp.lbl.gov/sites/all/files/german-us-pv-price-ppt.pd...

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