Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available • Hacker News Board

Re: Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available

#21

Post by matthewbauer » Thu, May 10, 2018, 5:59 AM UTC

hedora wrote: post #8

I’ve been running the beta on my desktop. In this release, they have also established sane defaults for a wider range of window managers and desktop environments. The rough edges I’ve hit can all be attributed to systemd brain damage (like the fact that the linux kernel no longer has a working, synchronous, “probe the network cards and create a logical interface for each one” primitive). My only beef with devuan is t…

Is there an alternative to elogind? From what I can tell most software needs it.

Re: Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available

#22

Post by vbernat » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:11 AM UTC

sverige wrote: post #18

gsich wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

compare this to sysvinit, a no longer suitable init process.

I have yet to hear the argument that convinces me sysvinit (or openrc or runit) was "no longer suitable." In need of updating and revision? Sure. So broken that a completely new init that swallowed up a bunch of other processes and services was the best answer? Hardly. Systemd was initially sold as providing faster boot times. Objections to its cancerous spread to other services beyond init were dismissed without pro…

> Systemd was initially sold as providing faster boot times.

Systemd was not about speed. Speed is a side-effect of correctly handling ordering. See http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.

Re: Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available

#23

Post by vbernat » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:18 AM UTC

hedora wrote: post #8

I’ve been running the beta on my desktop. In this release, they have also established sane defaults for a wider range of window managers and desktop environments. The rough edges I’ve hit can all be attributed to systemd brain damage (like the fact that the linux kernel no longer has a working, synchronous, “probe the network cards and create a logical interface for each one” primitive). My only beef with devuan is t…

> The rough edges I’ve hit can all be attributed to systemd brain damage (like the fact that the linux kernel no longer has a working, synchronous, “probe the network cards and create a logical interface for each one” primitive).

Multithreaded device probing exists far before systemd. It was introduced around Linux 2.6.18.

Re: Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available

#24

Post by tannhaeuser » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:20 AM UTC

craftyguy wrote: post #10

nextos wrote: post #3

Devuan is basically Debian without systemd. While I still prefer to run Linux distributions with systemd (NixOS and Arch in particular), I'm increasingly worried about the complexity systemd brings in. I like how clean and standardized the init process is now. I don't like the bloat prize we've paid, though. I've been stracing my workstation for a few days. Journald starts eating a ton of RAM, ~100 MB upon boot, and…

see newnewpdro's comment. I just built a headless armv7h system (using Arch Linux ARM) with 1GB of RAM, and after being up for 3 days running nginx, ssh, and some other bare services, the total RAM usage, for all applications, is 70-100MB. Systemd is complex, but it really doesn't seem to add a lot of resource drain for the power it give you... I'm happy with that tradeoff.

Out of curiosity, to start nginx and sshd you need like 2 lines of shell code in a BSDish rc.conf - one for starting each service. Why do you think systemd bringing in 10s and 100s of megabytes of black magic binary code is a trade-off worth making, especially on a non-desktop without a need for reacting on up/down events of network interfaces?

Re: Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available

#25

Post by jdoss » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:31 AM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #15

trollian wrote: post #6

I appreciate that they named their release after a no longer suitable character encoding. It does seem like a lot of trouble to go to to troll the systemd haters though.

Devuan is serving a need. It is not trolling.

What exact need?

Re: Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available

#26

Post by sanxiyn » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:51 AM UTC

jdoss wrote: post #25

sanxiyn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devuan is serving a need. It is not trolling.

What exact need?

A need to run Debian system without systemd.

Re: Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available

#27

Post by JdeBP » Thu, May 10, 2018, 7:47 AM UTC

kbumsik wrote: post #9

Why they use "ASCII" for a distro release? This is so confusing name for people who don't know what Devuan is. I firstly thought some wierd guys created their own character encoding and claimed 2.0 version of ASCII.

As mentioned, the release codenames are those of minor planets. It was how the Devuan people chose to synchronize with "Jessie" when they forked, since there is an asteroid (discovered in 1979) with the same name as the Toy Story character, and then branch onto a new naming system.

* https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=2003568

* https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=10464

* https://devuan.org/os/releases

Re: Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available

#28

Post by self_awareness » Thu, May 10, 2018, 7:57 AM UTC

Don't want to troll or anything, just a question from curiosity: don't you think that massive popularity of systemd is a result of a massive demand for software like systemd?

Re: Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available

#29

Post by iforgotpassword » Thu, May 10, 2018, 8:00 AM UTC

frankharv wrote: post #14

freedomben wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you want to use sysvinit over systemd? Do you have init scripts already written that you don't want to port?

Well binary logs seem to be a good enough reason for me. I use FreeBSD and Devuan feels like I am in control. Some commercial software won't work on FreeBSD so I have to use some Linux. I also use Alpine because it uses OpenRC. With gLibc missing it is tough to compile some software. Compared, Devuan seems to be very software compatible and offers the familiarity of Debian. Over at FreeBSD we have loads of new users…

That's why I have a wildcard redirect to rsyslogd, the journal is pretty much mirrored in text form in /var/log.

I still think systemd is by far the best init system around. Service files are a trillion times cleaner, easier to understand and maintain than those bloated 90% copy and past init scripts with the retarded archaic run level concept.

Really, if I had a reasonable amount of free time left I'd start something like systemd lite which is just the init part and none of the other bullshit. You could already just use that part but there is still quite a bit of crap around that could just be removed.

Re: Devuan “ASCII” 2.0 Release Candidate is now available

#30

Post by iforgotpassword » Thu, May 10, 2018, 8:06 AM UTC

sverige wrote: post #18

gsich wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

compare this to sysvinit, a no longer suitable init process.

I have yet to hear the argument that convinces me sysvinit (or openrc or runit) was "no longer suitable." In need of updating and revision? Sure. So broken that a completely new init that swallowed up a bunch of other processes and services was the best answer? Hardly. Systemd was initially sold as providing faster boot times. Objections to its cancerous spread to other services beyond init were dismissed without pro…

The init process is faster because they have by far the cleanest and most efficient way of managing and ordering dependencies.

Everything else that systemd brings is questionable to say the least. Combine that with a project founder with shitty personality and you get what systemd is today.