A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#431

Post by smsm42 » Thu, May 10, 2018, 4:09 AM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #207

blattimwind wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In all corporate ethics training courses, you're always hammered with the message of avoiding even the perception of a conflict of interests and such. Some years ago I participated in a first aid course (these are required around here for many things). One of the others did it as part of retraining after leaving the navy. Problem for him was: He couldn't do any of the practical exercises in a group with women, beca…

I actually remember reading somewhere that women are more likely than men to die in situations that call for CPR because men are so shy about touching women's chests.

You remember correctly: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-11/uops-psf1110...

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#432

Post by ChicagoDave » Thu, May 10, 2018, 4:10 AM UTC

yosito wrote: post #405

ChicagoDave wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we break the cycle? Colleges need to get out of the business of teaching CompSci the way the do it now. Less emphasis on science and engineering and more on team building, project management, business analysis, and more. Don't make programmers. To me that's like forcing everyone that plans to work on cars to only understand how to repair brakes. There is a whole lot of car outside of repairing just the brakes.…

Are you implying that science and engineering are problematic for women? ಠ_ಠ

Hell no. I’m saying our current working population is out of gender balance and women who would otherwise choose software engineering probably prefer to turn towards gender neutral professions, especially given all of the news of places like Uber.

We need to change the foundation of tech education to weave in other disciplines so gender balance is achieved.

Granted, if a college tried and they still struggled to meet the goal of gender balance, my theory goes out the window.

But except for brave and determined women, this imbalance will remain. Let’s take the need for bravery out of the equation, if it’s possible.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#433

Post by JamesBarney » Thu, May 10, 2018, 4:17 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #50

Are the rest of the STEM career paths seen as more social than CS? Is mathematics more social than CS? Because CS is almost (not quite: physics is almost as bad) unique among STEM specializations for its gender disparity. I talk regularly to academic math people (because cryptography) and the sense I have is that if anything, CS is far more social than the work they do --- to get anything significant done in technolo…

I think CS is unique in two ways. The first one way is it has a unique pipeline. Many CS majors started off tinkering around with their computers in ways that many high school girls don't.(where as most people's first experience with math/other stem is through classroom instruction)

The second is that programmers are perceived(rightly or wrongly) to be more lacking of social skills than other equivalent professions.

i.e. the office versus silicon valley

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#434

Post by dang » Thu, May 10, 2018, 4:25 AM UTC

089723645897236 wrote: post #119

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #58

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

You don't get to check out because you are a jerk and are afraid you won't be able to stop being a jerk. You have to try HARDER because you are PRIVILEGED to be part of the majority. This applies to race, culture, whatever. Just because you suck at social skills (hello HN!) doesn't mean you get to check out and not try. In fact if you are reading this and making excuses on why you don't have to make an effort, YOU AR…

Please don't post ideological rants to Hacker News, regardless of which ideology you favor.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#435

Post by arkis22 » Thu, May 10, 2018, 4:28 AM UTC

meowface wrote: post #425

geebee wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point seems fairly clear to me. arkis22 is pointing out that this author is making unfavorable generalizations about men, and stating that these generalizations are probably partly due to biology. Here, it is that women assign greater value to close friendships. Later, she states that: "My experience confirms that teenage and college-age girls care more than boys do about solving real human problem (as opposed to…

I see, their point is that this particular woman can talk about biological differences but Damore can't. (I misinterpreted the poster as saying that the author was contradicting herself by rebuking Damore, which she wasn't, but that's not what they meant.) That is a valid point. But the issue should be taken with Google's leadership and the individuals who unjustly raked Damore over the coals (his post-termination be…

The nuance of male friendship and popularity is probably just as complicated as female friendship and popularity. Complicated in a sense that I doubt any questionnaire captures the real truth.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#436

Post by rstuart4133 » Thu, May 10, 2018, 4:31 AM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #8

The first part of this had great citations to cite that women are more social. Where the data was lacking is that 1) software is perceived as anti-social and 2) that other anti-social careers face similar problems to software engineering. For example if socialization was such a critical decider, why are some many women maids or professional housekeepers? Most people in this career don't get much on-the-job socializat…

> software is perceived as anti-social

IMO anti-socal wasn't the best choice of words. I'm pretty sure in this context she intended "social" to mean "a pursuit where the bulk of your time is spent interacting with people", and "anti-social" meant "a pursuit where the bulk of your time is spent time interacting with things".

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#437

Post by meowface » Thu, May 10, 2018, 4:32 AM UTC

arkis22 wrote: post #435

meowface wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, their point is that this particular woman can talk about biological differences but Damore can't. (I misinterpreted the poster as saying that the author was contradicting herself by rebuking Damore, which she wasn't, but that's not what they meant.) That is a valid point. But the issue should be taken with Google's leadership and the individuals who unjustly raked Damore over the coals (his post-termination be…

The nuance of male friendship and popularity is probably just as complicated as female friendship and popularity. Complicated in a sense that I doubt any questionnaire captures the real truth.

Of course, but friendships between males and females is a whole other dynamic entirely.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#438

Post by thucydidesofusa » Thu, May 10, 2018, 4:41 AM UTC

yosito wrote: post #359

everdrive wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is dead on. To be honest, girls can get creeped out whether I have platonic intent or not. Part of what defines a guy as "creepy" is the mere fact of whether or not he's reading a girl's signals correctly. This can be problematic, since it doesn't necessarily follow that failing to read a girl's boundaries correctly means I have anything other than platonic intent. This can be circumvented for sure, but my usual…

> it doesn't necessarily follow that failing to read a girl's boundaries correctly means I have anything other than platonic intent Failing to read a _woman's_ boundaries correctly may not say anything about your intentions, but intentions don't matter if you're violating someone's boundaries. People shouldn't make excuses for not reading other's boundaries, they should learn to read other's boundaries and if they're…

>intentions don't matter if you're violating someone's boundaries

Where did you get that idea? Strangers pushed together on public transportation certainly shouldn't treat that as hostile or threatening.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#439

Post by thucydidesofusa » Thu, May 10, 2018, 5:18 AM UTC

yosito wrote: post #370

manicdee wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why men who aren’t able to read those boundaries prefer to simply avoid getting anywhere near those boundaries. The easiest way of not transgressing is to avoid contact altogether.

Reasonable enough, but if that's the case, we should be blaming the avoidance on men for their social incompetence, not on women for having boundaries.

No. We should discuss the norms of software jobs and the extent to which industries should accommodate people who don't fit the norms of the industry.

I'd like to work as a counselor or social worker but my belief on human nature is that humanity is fundamentally evil although self-interest and dominion can motivate people to care and be effective. But there's a systemic bias in that industry against people like me. How do you think we should resolve disputes groups that are currently doing a job verses groups who purport to be interested in doing the job?

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#440

Post by stcredzero » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:16 AM UTC

meowface wrote: post #429

stcredzero wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by unattractive, they don't necessarily mean "ugly" but rather geeky, asocial, with niche interests, no fashion sense, little in common with most women, etc Young men and women in their 20's usually don't have a very good self awareness of their own inherent attractiveness. There's that which Iain M. Banks termed, "the elegance of the newly matured." By that, I mean something which is natural, and of the natural…

That is easier said than done for people who have been struggling with social isolation, ostracization, loneliness, mockery, anxiety, awkwardness, zero self-esteem, an inability to relate, and little or no contact with the opposite sex for their entire lives. They don't know how to dress in a fashionable or appealing way. They probably don't know proper grooming beyond the basics. And even if they were to improve the…

That is easier said than done for people who have been struggling with social isolation, ostracization, loneliness, mockery, anxiety, awkwardness, zero self-esteem, an inability to relate, and little or no contact with the opposite sex for their entire lives.

That would also have been me, to some extent. Many things that are worth doing have an element of challenge. Easier said than done.

They don't know how to dress in a fashionable or appealing way. They probably don't know proper grooming beyond the basics.

Those are big ones, and they are fairly easily fixed if you have the resources of a white collar worker. Isn't that what happens in those 80's movies? The awkward one gets cleaned up and turns out to be a hottie?

You say "genuinely be yourself", but many people are unable to be themselves without unintentionally and unknowingly creating aversion and discomfort in others.

This, too goes for just about everyone, to some extent. Dancing or some other kind of physical activity can help. The point isn't to let all of your guts spill out. The point is to get you out of yourself, without being artificially impaired. Being artificially impaired actually never actually helped me one iota. Not even Ecstasy, at least not in the long run. In terms of good relations between men and women, I think it largely hurts on US campuses.

Many women also struggle with anxiety, awkwardness, isolation, and the other issues listed

I dated one for most of a decade and asked her to marry me. She said no. Didn't end well. I would say, that finding a partner who is well adjusted pretty much trumps every other concern. The first well adjusted partner who you'd trust to save your life: I'd say one should marry her/him.

One last thing I'd say: Don't be a nihilist. I'm an atheist, but I would also say that I have a purpose driven life. Go and see enough of the world, so you know how both ugly and beautiful it can be -- until it brings you to tears. Then you will be able to find and live for some meaningful goal. Getting past nihilism can be a huge leg up on finding good relationships. (College aged women can sometimes mistake nihilism for depth, but for me, I was too psychically beat up to "benefit" from that.)