A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#351

Post by tptacek » Wed, May 09, 2018, 10:59 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #341

tptacek wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. Are there? The home computing revolution was a weird inflection point. Medicine got more scientific over the last 200 years, steadily so, not less. The law has steadily remained formal and accredited since the founding of the country (and presumably long before). I'm sure there are similar cases, but this might be the biggest one in recent memory. Again, part of my claim is: this is not really a surpris…

I don't know. Are there? Popular Music? Fiction writing? Journalism? Creating video content would qualify. (Possibly relevant: YouTube's audience is mostly male, while Tumblr's is mostly female. IIRC, the audience for video pornography also tends to skew male, while written erotica skews female.) The home computing revolution was a weird inflection point. Basically, it's the start of when computing went from a tool f…

Journalism seems like it could be a good example!

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#352

Post by mikeash » Wed, May 09, 2018, 11:00 PM UTC

throwaway84742 wrote: post #345

mikeash wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read “have a pulse” as “it doesn’t matter how qualified or pleasant these women were, the men were eager to have any contact with a woman and would have taken them on just for that.” Does it mean something else?

It means they didn’t have to make any effort whatsoever to get attention and help of their male peers. Interpret this as you wish.

So, creepy.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#353

Post by yosito » Wed, May 09, 2018, 11:11 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #296

yosito wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't be sure you're offering a solution to the right problem if you haven't taken the time to empathize with what the problem is first.

And passive empathy without action is pointless. How much data needs to be gathered before an action becomes clear? Should we all not take any action until then?

I haven't seen any actions recommended. Just people nitpicking everything they think is wrong with a woman's opinion.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#354

Post by pvg » Wed, May 09, 2018, 11:11 PM UTC

titanix2 wrote: post #298

tptacek wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an off-the-charts creepy thing to say.

Evolution of creepiness: 2018: saying that men are primarily interested in women for sex 2019: saying oceans are made of water Can't wait for 2020 when saying Hello to an unknown person will so creepy it would be called a micro-agression. Oh wait...! https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4txyh4

That first one has always been both creepy and plain misogyny.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#355

Post by yosito » Wed, May 09, 2018, 11:12 PM UTC

arkis22 wrote: post #277

yosito wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically, dismissive comments full of excuses like "I'm unattractive and women aren't nice to me" are lacking empathy.

It is not dismissive if it's true.

That's not how that works.

^ This comment is me being dismissive of you, and it's also true.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#356

Post by wilsonnb » Wed, May 09, 2018, 11:12 PM UTC

modbait wrote: post #288

wilsonnb wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the attractiveness that they focus on isn't necessarily unchangeable, though. Many people can significantly improve the first impression they make by having a nice haircut that fits your head shape and clothes that fit your body shape well, match each other well, and aren't out of place for the current season.

So instead of "befriend her", you're suggesting "get new clothes and a nice haircut and then befriend her"? No thanks--I have enough friends.

I'm suggesting that people who feel like others unfairly judge them as creepy and don't like it use the modifiable aspects of their physical appearance to change how people see them.

Apparently you don't care if you are perceived as creepy, which is fine, but other people do care and would be interested in doing something about it.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#357

Post by yosito » Wed, May 09, 2018, 11:17 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #280

yosito wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not assuming anything about his intentions. I'm saying that to be labeled creepy literally means that someone is suspicious of your intentions. And the solution is to be clear about your intentions or, even better, your lack of intentions when they are unwelcome.

Your post literally says: "the reason for your creepiness is that your intentions are to attract someone". GP's post never refers to intentions or situations or behaviors or anything. You are castigating GP for intentions and behaviors that exist entirely in your imagination.

I qualified that statement by saying "If you're saying that your attractiveness is the reason you've been told you're creepy...", because if that's what he's saying, he's admitting his intentions and I don't have to assume. If he's not saying that, then my statement doesn't apply.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#358

Post by mikeash » Wed, May 09, 2018, 11:20 PM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #349

mikeash wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it’s exactly like the car thing, except racing cars is a recreational activity enjoyed by only a few people, while talking to people is an essential human skill done by virtually everyone.

Racing is traveling, traveling is an essential human skill done by virtually everyone. Please, let us not get into bad faith argument even deeper. Nobody here is arguing against talking to people. The question is about the safe and dangerous modes of talking to people.

Commenters here are literally talking about avoiding interaction with half of the people in the world because they don’t know how to do it without getting into trouble.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#359

Post by yosito » Wed, May 09, 2018, 11:23 PM UTC

everdrive wrote: post #141

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #58

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

This is dead on. To be honest, girls can get creeped out whether I have platonic intent or not. Part of what defines a guy as "creepy" is the mere fact of whether or not he's reading a girl's signals correctly. This can be problematic, since it doesn't necessarily follow that failing to read a girl's boundaries correctly means I have anything other than platonic intent. This can be circumvented for sure, but my usual…

> it doesn't necessarily follow that failing to read a girl's boundaries correctly means I have anything other than platonic intent

Failing to read a _woman's_ boundaries correctly may not say anything about your intentions, but intentions don't matter if you're violating someone's boundaries. People shouldn't make excuses for not reading other's boundaries, they should learn to read other's boundaries and if they're repeatedly incapable or unwilling to do so, they should be treated as either children, adults with social disorders, or violators. There is NO acceptable excuse for violating another person's boundaries.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#360

Post by dbasedweeb » Wed, May 09, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

modbait wrote: post #2

> Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. As an unattractive computer nerd, I've been regularly reminded my entire life that I am creepy. Skipping.

Have you decided that your looks are the reason, or been told? You may be assuming that it’s your looks, when it frankly isn’t. In my experience creepy usually means creepy, and creepy poeple lack insight... which is part of what makes them creepy. It might not be looks, but behavior, a sense of anger or discomfort, etc.

Women often have to go by their gut instinct with guys, because if they don’t it can end in them being very badly hurt. Any heuristic is likely to generate false positives. Someone who is very anxious or socially awkward may come across as dangerous simply because of the heightened emotional state and failure to respond to social cues. It may also be that there is a strong correlation between “socially awkward” and “unattractive” for obvious reasons.

So again, I wouldn’t assume that looks represent cause rather than correlation. For an analogy, it could be like someone who is afraid of dogs being disproportionately bitten by dogs who react to the fear that person has of being bitten.