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Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever

citylab.com

21–30 of 248 posts

Re: Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever

#22
I keep hearing a lot of anti-car sentiment on HN, and a lot of claims that cities with good public transit are wonderful. Amsterdam is often cited as an example. So I decided to find out for myself. I went there.

It convinced me more than ever that I will always prefer car/uber/lyft to public transit. Wait, hear me out.

Yes, buses and bikes were wonderful. But, they do not stop at my door, and they do not stop at where I want to go. Sometimes they stop close, sometimes a few blocks away. Lots of people will argue that this is OK, but it really is not when the weather is a freezing rain. So basically to subscribe to your vision of the future city, I have to subject myself to walking and waiting in freezing rain?

No thanks. Car/Uber/Lyft for me.

PS: I am not saying let's stop having buses. Just that everyone who claims that everyone should be on buses and we should ban cars from cities is delusional or a masochist.

[bring on the downvotes, thanks for proving the point that no rational debate can be had here]

Re: Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever

#23
post #3

I love the bus because it runs express from my Chicago neighborhood directly into the loop. I get on, play with my phone, and get off 25 minutes later. I don't have to fight traffic driving myself and I can multi-task if I choose. The problem comes when trying to take the bus to any other part of the city. It's slow, stops at every block, and is unpredictable when it arrives. It's a mode of transport that supports ev…

Exactly this.

When I moved to Portland (from NYC, unfortunately), I hoped that I would have access to the MAX, but if not then I'd be able to take the bus to work. I ended up being about 20 blocks from the nearest MAX stop, but there was a bus stop right outside my apartment. I took the bus maybe a dozen times before I realized that it really is a non-option; what takes me ~15 minutes (20 on a extremely rare bad day) in a car takes me at least 45 minutes (to an hour) on the bus.

It's really all about what bus route you're on, and your ability to find housing on the bus with the most direct line to your office (in a city like Portland). That's usually not super easy. I have coworkers that have 15-30 minute bus rides from farther out because they're on efficient bus routes.

Re: Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever

#24
post #15

Nah how about we all work from home 2 or 3 days a week. People will actually do that and it saves not only the city but whole bunch of other things for the employee and the employer.

Yes, it'd be really interesting to see cities try to develop that as a partial solution to congestion and pollution. Offering a formal 3/5 days telecommute option for a large enough portion of your workforce should qualify for some type of rebate, subsidy, or credit.

Re: Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Portland, OR, the light rail does 'train bunching', with the exact same consequences (inconsistent schedule, overcrowded trains followed closely by empty ones, etc).

In Seattle (where I lived for three years, until just recently,) there was this dedicated bus lane. Cars for the most part stayed off of it, but the bus still had to stop at traffic lights. Anything on rail is just way more suited to nonstop use! People in cars can (or should) more easily understand that trains/streetcars can't just start and stop just for them.

There are lots of those in Seattle and King County. They even close down an entire avenue during rush hour and turn it into a bus-only street.

Re: Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever

#26
There is a huge problem here - we are designing cities around the manually operated car, focused on the commute to and from work (and lesser extent school)

But these are dying trends - but they will be baked into our cities by concrete and tarmac for decades.

I travel by coach from outside London (basically they drive round a commuter belt town picking up about 30 people then hop on a motorway. Dozens maybe more of similar coaches run each day). And I work in the City and right now there are, I kid you not, a major 50+ storey building going up on each point of the compass at work. London is adding major office space.

But the jobs will become more remote working - and the infrastructure can barely take it - funnelling millions of people from suburban beds to inner city offices is what half the infrastructure of a city is for.

When this stops, it will stop suddenly.

Remote working is nicer. you spend more time with your kids, you walk, take part in your community, see people.

It wins hands down.

So when something shifts, and remote working hits that tipping point, what happens?

My last position almost everyone did one day a week from home. Turn that into three at home and 2 in meetings and coffee and ...

I'm sorry there is a point i am making but it's late and i need to think on it

Re: Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever

#27

The bus system has to make pretty aggressive tradeoffs in order to be useful to commuters. You can't make it stop at every block in order to make it take less walking to get to the bus stop. Similarly, you can't have parallel lines a block apart. You have to limit the service area so that you can afford to run busses every 5-10 minutes. And you'll want to improve streets so that busses can run down the center and pic…

  Like, I take the BART every day into work. It's fantastic. 
  I walk for five to ten minutes to get to the station, a 
  train comes every 5 minutes so I don't have to worry about 
  the train schedule, then I walk another five to ten minutes 
  to get to the office. If the bus experience could match 
  that, it'd take over a lot of commuting.
For what it's worth, this is only the case if you live near a station with overlap (or live in SF itself). I lived in West Oakland and had a train practically every 3 minutes.

Then I moved to Berkeley. Commute in is every 15 minutes, 50/50 I have to take a transfer on the way in. Commute home is a nightmare: BART has a carriage shortage so they try to shave off cars from longer routes (such as the Richmond line). This means things get really crowded on occasion, and there's a point where a car being crowded begets more crowding, as it takes longer and longer to offboard/onboard people and therefore each subsequent stop has more people to cram on. A majority of the time on my way home when I get a transfer (as there seems to be a Richmond train from SF only for an hour span at the peak of rush hour), the trains are almost an entire cycle late, meaning I've got another 15 minute wait to see two trains come through one after the other.

The point of this is: the problems you raise with busses are also with trains/BART. Some of them are even worse for BART: you have to steeply limit the service area because putting down tracks is stupendously expensive.

Re: Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever

#28
Buses are the public transport of last resort for very good reasons.

They go through all the busiest areas to maximize passenger numbers, which is what makes them slow.

Delays compound; since per-stop timetables are unpredictable due to traffic, buses normally just try to make the best time they can. Which means you wait for the bus, possibly for a long time. So a late bus becomes later, as it takes longer to board the extra passengers, and then the next bus catches up, and you get bunching.

You're much better off walking or cycling to a rail option if you have it. Buses in busy cities are barely faster than walking at the worst of times, especially when you add in waiting time.

As a result, the bus works best for those people who can't walk or cycle - old people, mothers with buggies - and poor people who have little choice but to sit in a bus for an hour or more as it crosses town.

Point to point longer distance, special purpose buses that don't need to follow main routes can work much better. Airport shuttles, work shuttles, that kind of thing.

Re: Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever

#29
The challenge here is riding the bus is inferior in convenience and comfort, fundamentally, vs other options. Unless price (likely by eliminating any subsidies for other methods; today even a $0 bus fare would still not be enough) or other features (bypassing traffic) make up for it, why would a rational person take the bus? There are probably places on the margin where buses are more acceptable right now (in a downtown core area where they replace a long walk, where other methods are inconvenient), but if the goal is wide usage, this has to be addressed.

Private bus networks with access limited to certain people (employees of companies or groups of companies, universities, etc) seem to work ok; what generally doesn’t seem to work are public buses.

Is the problem density (I doubt Google employees across Bay Area are denser than bus riding public overall within SF) — probably not.

A lot of the unpleasantness is other riders. Without the ability to ban certain riders (either via a whitelist or blacklist), bus ridership will remain limited. BART is bad enough, but whenever I’ve taken muni or peninsula bus service (very rarely)it made the case for this.

Transit agencies are also highly political — unionized labor, political appointees running it, expensive contracts for everything, inflexible policies — so I doubt they could provide the same service as private bus companies.

The solution is probably not public transit, but possibly is multi passenger vehicles. Something like Lyft Line with more passengers, dynamic routing, etc, plus some core routes with scheduled higher capacity service.

Re: Buses Need Our Love More Than Ever

#30
post #5

I suspect the uncomfortable truth behind a lot of the problems regarding public transit isn't the transit itself, but the passengers. If you had the choice of riding a public bus with a large collection of the public or paying a few bucks and selecting a preferred subset of the ridership (e.g. chariot in SF, uber, lyft, etc.) I think most will choose the non-bus option to feel comfortable during their ride. I'm not s…

Absolutely. What I don’t know is if the problem is a small number of very bad actors who could probably be blacklisted, or the average “co-rider tolerability” of a larger number of people (such that it would require a whitelist).
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