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A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

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Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#301

Post by stcredzero »

tptacek wrote: post #262
stcredzero wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not "vilifying men or the masculine". I am a dude. Also a dad, of a STEM college boy and a STEM HS girl. Also a dad, of a STEM college boy and a STEM HS girl. I like beer and pork fat and whiskey and cars. Glad to hear it. I'm happy to keep talking to you about this stuff, but I will not do that if you're trying to trap me in some weird ideological conflict about the persecution of men. Well, likewise. I don't wa…

I didn't say anything about men being bad, I don't believe there is anything intrinsically bad about men, and in fact I reject a lot of hypotheses about gender disparity based on "masculine behavior" explanations, such as the notion that women are put off by competitiveness (I am married to an extremely competitive woman engineer and, through her roller derby escapades, have met more than my fair share of other compe…

I didn't say anything about men being bad

I never said that you did. You only impute that from the juxtaposition of the sentences. I only said that vilification wasn't such a good idea. Given that we are talking about the potential downsides of "an insular and chauvinist culture," I think it's useful to say one should be circumspect about vilification. Assume incompetence before maliciousness, and all that.

You implied that I did.

Not at all. You are stating that I implied that you did, however, and that's simply not true, which I have stated above. In this, you are implying that I am a liar. Let me "shut that down hard." I've already apologized so either provide your evidence, or be calling me a liar.

(a) rooted in the 1970s and (b) ignore decades of subsequent research.

Aww, hell. Also ignore research from the 60's and from common practices of just 5 years ago!

I think all these things feed into each other, too. There can be more than one explanation.

Are there other de-professionalized fields?

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#302

Post by everdrive »

InstanceOf wrote: post #290
everdrive wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is dead on. To be honest, girls can get creeped out whether I have platonic intent or not. Part of what defines a guy as "creepy" is the mere fact of whether or not he's reading a girl's signals correctly. This can be problematic, since it doesn't necessarily follow that failing to read a girl's boundaries correctly means I have anything other than platonic intent. This can be circumvented for sure, but my usual…

I've seen women call men creepy for literally no reason (this is more common in pre-college aged girls), I assume it's equivalent to "you're ugly and not a person to me and I'm offended you tried to talk to me (even if it was purely school assignment related)". I've even met one girl who _wanted_ it to be a term of endearment (considering the above, there was no way that was going to work). I've also seen a shit-ton…

As I understand it, a woman doesn't know which men are threats or not (and some certainly are) -- so a man who can't read their boundaries is really a canary in the mine for them. Moreso, this tends not to be an intellectual calculation, but an intuitive emotional reaction -- to the degree that a woman might not really be able to articulate why she finds a man creepy, except that it's obvious to her and her female friends agree.

Although this problem is frustrating to me, I fully admit it didn't arise out of nowhere. Women have some real bad actors they need to be on the lookout for. That this is an intuitive reaction (instead of an intellectual calculation) really implies this is not a new problem. Unfortunately, though, it does mean observing some old-fashioned boundaries with women is the safest course of action.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#303

Post by furi »

colemickens wrote: post #159
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #58

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

This comment is in every single one of these threads. I am not trying to be hyperbolic here, but it reminds me of people that act as if "laws" are the only thing keeping them from murdering their annoying neighbor. I don't know how to read it without thinking "wow, this confirms what women are saying about men". I mean, I guess I should be glad there's some self-awareness? Maybe I just can't empathize as a gay man th…

As I said in another comment, I fear approaching women because I don't expect people to be any more charitable with me than I am with them, and I do not think highly of men who approach women. If a man approaches my girlfriend without a very good excuse both her and I automatically assume sexual intent (even in the absence of any overtly sexual, creepy or inappropriate behavior) because in our experience that's usually correct (probably some confirmation bias at play there I don't doubt). I know several of my friends feel the same way and I don't get the impression that this is an uncommon default. I simply don't want people to suspect me in the same way so I avoid approaching women and if I do I try to work in the fact that I have a partner so as to make myself appear a bit more harmless. This comment captures that fear for me, albeit dressed up in hysteria about falsified sexual harassment allegations.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#304

Post by Zarath »

pvg wrote: post #294
wieghant wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We recently got a new female analyst. We invite her for lunch and sometimes have small talk. Thing is, there's literally zero chemistry. We can't include here in our dumb Skype chat because its usually filled with incredibly dumb offensive memes - so we just try to keep our laughs down. We tried invite her to video game night and even organized board games just because she wasn't into video games that much. But again…

You should probably re-examine whether any of these things are necessary for a fruitful professional relationship and to what extent your merger of your social and professional life excludes current and potential coworkers who are not some close variant of you and your pals.

Seriously? Maybe the interactions just make him happy?

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#305

Post by stcredzero »

InstanceOf wrote: post #290
everdrive wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is dead on. To be honest, girls can get creeped out whether I have platonic intent or not. Part of what defines a guy as "creepy" is the mere fact of whether or not he's reading a girl's signals correctly. This can be problematic, since it doesn't necessarily follow that failing to read a girl's boundaries correctly means I have anything other than platonic intent. This can be circumvented for sure, but my usual…

I've seen women call men creepy for literally no reason (this is more common in pre-college aged girls), I assume it's equivalent to "you're ugly and not a person to me and I'm offended you tried to talk to me (even if it was purely school assignment related)". I've even met one girl who _wanted_ it to be a term of endearment (considering the above, there was no way that was going to work). I've also seen a shit-ton…

I've seen women call men creepy for literally no reason

I'm corroborating this.

I've also seen a shit-ton of creepy borderline sociopathic behavior from males, much of it gone uncalled out (by the supposedly sane males who were standing by)

Let me guess: It was from the highest status male in the immediate vicinity?

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#306

Post by gnulinux »

mywittyname wrote: post #129
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #58

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

> "Well, I might be socially awkward talking to this girl anyway, so I'll just avoid the complication." This is exactly how I am, but it has nothing to do with the #metoo movement. The reason is because I discovered at a young age that girls didn't want a ugly boy talking to them. It makes them uncomfortable, and as a result, it makes me uncomfortable. So in my mind, avoiding attractive women is being polite. Somethi…

This is exactly me. All my, maybe >10 (of course in college, not in work), attempts ended up me being called out for being creepy so I basically quit trying because I don't want to make women uncomfortable. When I say this to my friends they act as if I'm inflicting self-harm. We should really let people being at peace with their sexuality.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#307

Post by rexaliquid »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #42
StreamBright wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dont give up, learn the basics of human interactions and get interested in people, your life will change.

Speaking from personal experience, this advice isn't as bad as the votes and replies are making it look. I spent most of my time as a kid screwing around with computers and other whatsits, so I was really withdrawn and socially awkward after high school, and gave off the kind of accidental creeper aura that people here are talking about. (A mix of shyness, over-sharing, nonexistent small talk, and bad body language.)…

Organized roleplaying campaigns could be a good social hobby that is fun for the nerd brain, too.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#308

Post by hn_throwaway333 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #58

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

In my previous job, a women moved from a different country to join our group. We had common mutual interestss, we talked often, had a couple of drinks and dinner once. I did the same thing with a male coworker. However, the relationship with a woman is always going to be a little different, especially if your both single. After a couple of weeks I asked her if she was interested in dating.

She said it was not a good idea as we were coworkers, and thinking about it I fully agreed and immediately backed of, tried to do the professional thing and did not ask her to join me for coffee or dinner anymore. It was only later that I realized that this was also not what she wanted - she was in a new country, didn't know anyone, and now she kind of lost one of the coworkers that she did have a good (friendly) connection with.

It was only about half a year later, after we were both in a relationship with different people, that we reconnected as friends, and we still speak occasionally today after we moved to new jobs.

I guess the point of this post is to say, it is more complicated to be friends with someone of the opposite gender than to be friends with someone of the same gender.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#309

Post by Mythanar »

pvg wrote: post #294
wieghant wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We recently got a new female analyst. We invite her for lunch and sometimes have small talk. Thing is, there's literally zero chemistry. We can't include here in our dumb Skype chat because its usually filled with incredibly dumb offensive memes - so we just try to keep our laughs down. We tried invite her to video game night and even organized board games just because she wasn't into video games that much. But again…

You should probably re-examine whether any of these things are necessary for a fruitful professional relationship and to what extent your merger of your social and professional life excludes current and potential coworkers who are not some close variant of you and your pals.

He should probably not. If it works for the majority of the team (which from the grandparent comments seems it does), the impetus is on candidates to fit in existing culture, not the culture to change to fit candidates.

Most effective teams are usually ones with least communication impedance. The less you have to judge your words and go through diplomacy/"re-examination" dance in routine conversations, the more time you have to do your job. That's the reason "team fit/culture fit" is such an important criteria when hiring people.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#310

Post by jessaustin »

thucydidesofusa wrote: post #160
jrs95 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely a bit of a double standard here. I overhear comments like this fairly regularly. It's just normal and accepted behavior. (I wouldn't go as far as to say society generally has "deference to women's feelings", though.)

A sizable fraction of restraining orders are granted on women's feelings. And look at conversations around the social relations of men and women - women have rights and men have responsibilities. Women get to abort fetuses and unilaterally give children up for adoption, men get locked up if they dont pay child support. If you're a man go into public with a woman and get her to cry. Measure how long it takes until som…

Haha crying is a great emotional hack. Most people are helplessly vulnerable to it. Over the weekend I was swimming with the family. We hadn't seen any neighbors all day. My brother threw his son into the pool, surprising him enough that he started crying. In 2 seconds, multiple neighbors were out on their lanai, staring suspiciously at the carnage down at the pool.
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