A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#271

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

ryanobjc wrote: post #107

kazinator wrote: post #28

> Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. "Honey, there is this random blogger who thinks I should befriend a girl in my company. It's supposedly not creepy or anything. What do you think?" If I didn't care what my wife thinks, I'd still have to think twice and consider the gender-political climate of the modern age. The mere perception of having some intention of wrongdoing can harm you. In all…

Here's your simple rule: https://medium.com/@annevictoriaclark/the-rock-test-a-hack-f... Quoting: "It’s as clear cut as this: Treat all women like you would treat Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson." and "But definitely don’t hit on her. It looks like she could kill you with the chair you’re sitting on." It's really that simple.

[deleted]

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#272

Post by yosito » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:29 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #115

yosito wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating attraction and friendship. Being creepy means that you seem to have unwelcome intentions. If you're saying that your attractiveness is the reason you've been told you're creepy, the reason for your creepiness is that your intentions are to attract someone, not to befriend them. Fix your intentions if you don't want to be creepy. And listen, I'm not saying you shouldn't want to attract someone, just…

There is no reason to assume GP was motivated by that intention, in whatever situation you're imagining. You do so from a position of privilege.

I'm not assuming anything about his intentions. I'm saying that to be labeled creepy literally means that someone is suspicious of your intentions. And the solution is to be clear about your intentions or, even better, your lack of intentions when they are unwelcome.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#273

Post by godelski » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

jd75 wrote: post #122

I personally love me some alone time, but yeah, as a lady, tech is a little too lonely even for me. Something that I think would help is if the social types in the engineering department (often men!) would post interesting tech events in Slack. Maybe I don't enjoy sports or poker; maybe you don't enjoy sci-fi book readings or craft nights, but chances are we both want learn some new tricks (with free beer and snacks)…

> Something that I think would help is if the social types in the engineering department (often men!) would post interesting tech events in Slack.

I think this is really important. But should add that if you want to do something don't be afraid to make said post. If you feel lonely, reach out.

I moved across the country and had no friends there (into an engineering firm, in an engineering town, with few people my age (mostly engineers)). Being mostly an introvert I was fine being alone 99% of the time, but everyone needs friends. I figured out that when I need friend time that I had to be the one to organize such events. If I didn't then no one did anything, or the groups that already existed would just do their own things. (Can't blame them for excluding me. Not like it was a malicious act. Just no one knew me.) It can just be something simple as "Hey I was going to do $X on $DAY, want to come too?" (direct works better than an open invitation) After learning this I did actually develop friends and got invited to things.

So what I'm saying is that if you feel lonely you have to reach out. I completely understand that this sucks as an introvert. But you do have some control over this and you can't completely rely on others to invite you to things.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#274

Post by tptacek » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

chillee wrote: post #266

tptacek wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the numbers hold up all the way to PhDs. Women aren't obtaining math PhD's to become "math teachers" (and, if you read my original comment, you can also predict that they aren't doing academic crypto research to go teach math either).

Could you provide a citation on "the numbers hold up all the way to PhDs"? I found https://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/fraction-p... Vs https://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/womenmajor... Over 40% undergraduate degrees go to women, while less than 30% of doctorates.

https://imgur.com/a/nNHqwsP

Science Magazine, "Expectations of brilliance underlie gender distributions across academic disciplines", vertical axis is PhDs, 2011 numbers.

If nothing else at this point I think we can put a bullet in the "they just want to be math teachers" hypothesis.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#275

Post by colemickens » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

Draiken wrote: post #244

colemickens wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is in every single one of these threads. I am not trying to be hyperbolic here, but it reminds me of people that act as if "laws" are the only thing keeping them from murdering their annoying neighbor. I don't know how to read it without thinking "wow, this confirms what women are saying about men". I mean, I guess I should be glad there's some self-awareness? Maybe I just can't empathize as a gay man th…

I believe comparing murder to sexual harassment is plain misleading. If someone acuses someone else of murdering his neighbour they will have to go to all lenghts to prove it and it's a major moral line to cross. If someone acuses someone else of sexually harassing a woman, whether they're guilty or not, they'd most likely lose their job straight away and be labelled as a "perv" or something similar. I can't see how…

>It's easier for you to prove he fired you because of your sexual orientation than for him to prove you harassed him.

So, I can't understand as a gay man because I'm immune to accusations of sexual harassment because I can just use my orientation as a discrimination shield? Eh, no, not really. Frankly, it doesn't make sense and er, it doesn't address the fact that the other person could be gay?

While I concede that a false allegation of sexual harassment carries a different weight than a false allegation of murder... false accusations are lies and presumably will happen even if you avoid all contact with someone, no?

I guess I don't know what the alternative is. If I have to choose between ignoring workplace harassment and having folks err on the side of caution in the workplace behavior, I know which way I hope for us to err.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#276

Post by fujiters » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

truth123588 wrote: post #53

I think women avoid tech because they think tech guys are unattractive. Women go for professions where they believe they will be around attractive guys. Although, women are also interested in money, especially as they get older. When women realize tech leads to money, there are many dilemmas, and hence the "women in tech" movement.

Because teaching 1st grade will get you surrounded by good looking dudes?

I feel like finance has a reputation for having good looking guys. It also has a reputation for being mostly male.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#277

Post by arkis22 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

yosito wrote: post #265

arkis22 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that the men here aren't being empathetic because they feel like when they talk to women they get called creepy and therefore don't want to? Please, be specific. Otherwise it just sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

Specifically, dismissive comments full of excuses like "I'm unattractive and women aren't nice to me" are lacking empathy.

It is not dismissive if it's true.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#278

Post by commandlinefan » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

Jach wrote: post #254

commandlinefan wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many years ago (almost 20, I think), I was working as a contractor on a remote contract in a foreign country with one other person from my company, who also happened to be a woman. Since we were the only Americans there, and were staying at the same hotel, we naturally ended up having lunch and dinner together, and talked quite a bit. She was married, and I knew that. She commented once that she was spending more tim…

How did that play out in the end if you don't mind sharing? Did you make "no comment" as to whether you actually said that, deny saying it altogether, or be honest (as I think is an engineer's inclination) that you said those words as an in-context joke? Did you wish you tried one of the other approaches?

LOL, yep, I was completely honest about it. My boss said something like, "Hm, I guess maybe things sound different here under the cold lights of the office environment" (I don't remember his exactly words, but "cold lights" was something that actually did come out of his mouth). In the end, they filed a report, gave me a warning to keep their bases covered, and I got on with my life. She was as difficult for everybody else to deal with as she was for me to deal with, so she left not too long after that anyway.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#279

Post by stcredzero » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

mikeleeorg wrote: post #255

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #58

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

I see this not as a consequence of the #metoo movement and more of a consequence of the lack of social intelligence & skills education. Because it IS entirely possible to befriend a women and not come across creepy, regardless of your physical appearance. As the author mentioned, girls tend to "engage in more prosocial behaviors" than boys. This means teenage and college-age men - especially those who gravitate towar…

Because it IS entirely possible to befriend a women and not come across creepy, regardless of your physical appearance.

This is very highly dependent on perceived relative status. I remember just standing in an entryway literally doing and saying absolutely nothing, watching a woman melt down into delusion and accuse me of being a creeper. If you can be mistaken to be a homeless person, it's a lot more likely. If you dress well in an expensive suit, you're immune. Heck, you're a bit over-immune.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#280

Post by jessaustin » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

yosito wrote: post #272

jessaustin wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no reason to assume GP was motivated by that intention, in whatever situation you're imagining. You do so from a position of privilege.

I'm not assuming anything about his intentions. I'm saying that to be labeled creepy literally means that someone is suspicious of your intentions. And the solution is to be clear about your intentions or, even better, your lack of intentions when they are unwelcome.

Your post literally says: "the reason for your creepiness is that your intentions are to attract someone". GP's post never refers to intentions or situations or behaviors or anything. You are castigating GP for intentions and behaviors that exist entirely in your imagination.