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A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

kapwing.com

251–260 of 482 posts

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you think is harassing might quite well disagree with target female view of what harassing is, complicated by the fact that HR department might disagree with you both. And should that whole thing become public, you'll be judged by the entire office, with the entire spectrum of views on what harassment is. Personally, as a male, you have absolutely nothing to gain, and everything to lose. The most rational thing…

> as a male, you have absolutely nothing to gain, and everything to lose. Having friendly, healthy relationships with your colleagues isn't valuable? Or just with the ones who are women? Some of my best friendships/allies/contacts have been women who I worked with. I'm very thankful for the opportunities they have provided me and the value they add to my life. The fact that you see /zero/ value in having genuine conn…

> Having friendly, healthy relationships with your colleagues isn't valuable? Or just with the ones who are women?

Just with the ones who are women (from a male perspective). This specific point is because of #MeToo - this movement normalized the fact that "friendliness" and "healthiness" of a relationship is judged post-factum, sometimes years and decades post-factum, and the male perspective is rarely taken into account.

Think about it this way, even if one follows OP advice, and builds what he considers very healthy and friendly relationship, he exposes himself to (based on recent news stories, very real) risk of the relationship being second-guessed by the female, at any point in time in future, with the severe penalties resulting from mere accusations, not convictions, even if not true.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#252
post #50

Are the rest of the STEM career paths seen as more social than CS? Is mathematics more social than CS? Because CS is almost (not quite: physics is almost as bad) unique among STEM specializations for its gender disparity. I talk regularly to academic math people (because cryptography) and the sense I have is that if anything, CS is far more social than the work they do --- to get anything significant done in technolo…

It seems to me less a question of how social the various STEM fields are than that CS is more closely tied into the larger internet culture. Especially for young men I can see this making them more insular as a group even if they're, in lots of ways, just as social

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#253
post #27

> young men are less likely to approach women and invite them to join a study group or happy hour, poker night, or whatever else they do with their male peers/coworkers. As a man I've never been approached and invited to anything like this..

Maybe you should invite some others, then. Be the change you want to see, and all that.

But I'd rather stay up all night and clear Black Temple.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men don't want to even get close to the line of doing something that could be perceived as inappropriate Yeah I am wondering why someone would stick their neck out, especially if they have below-average social skills. Lots of personal liability for little personal gain, and #MeToo just publicized the existing uneasiness with professional interactions. It's not like any women helped when I was evaluating a career in…

Many years ago (almost 20, I think), I was working as a contractor on a remote contract in a foreign country with one other person from my company, who also happened to be a woman. Since we were the only Americans there, and were staying at the same hotel, we naturally ended up having lunch and dinner together, and talked quite a bit. She was married, and I knew that. She commented once that she was spending more tim…

How did that play out in the end if you don't mind sharing? Did you make "no comment" as to whether you actually said that, deny saying it altogether, or be honest (as I think is an engineer's inclination) that you said those words as an in-context joke? Did you wish you tried one of the other approaches?

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#255

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

I see this not as a consequence of the #metoo movement and more of a consequence of the lack of social intelligence & skills education. Because it IS entirely possible to befriend a women and not come across creepy, regardless of your physical appearance.

As the author mentioned, girls tend to "engage in more prosocial behaviors" than boys. This means teenage and college-age men - especially those who gravitate towards fields of study that are "perceived to be anti-social" - may come across as socially awkward in their interactions. And while their interactions may be entirely innocent, that awkwardness can be interpreted as "creepy" by some.

IMHO, one viable solution to this is to add and strengthen social and emotional intelligence education in our schools. And perhaps, offer workshops for parents as well. Many schools are already beginning to do this. We just need more of it - and to continue it all the way through higher education.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#256

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

This advice assume that men want to befriend women. It is understandable from a women point of view, but from a man perspective the friendzone is a big no-no. Most men would date a woman or not establish contact at all.

This is an off-the-charts creepy thing to say.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#257
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't say rude, they mentioned empathy. Julia Enthoven shared her experience as a Woman in tech, and this thread is filled with nitpicking, asking for sources, disagreement, alternate theories, debates, etc. There is no empathy here. So I'll start: Good for her for sharing her thoughts and experiences. It's a tough topic to talk about, and as we see here and elsewhere, people will immediately pick apart everyth…

Another way to look at the comments is to look at the audience. HackerNews readers are typically hard problem solvers. They discuss theories and solutions, and can't be afraid of avoiding potential causes because they make people uncomfortable. So while your post has empathy, it doesn't really push the solution-finding process forward in the way that other, more active (vs passive), posts do.

You can't be sure you're offering a solution to the right problem if you haven't taken the time to empathize with what the problem is first.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't say rude, they mentioned empathy. Julia Enthoven shared her experience as a Woman in tech, and this thread is filled with nitpicking, asking for sources, disagreement, alternate theories, debates, etc. There is no empathy here. So I'll start: Good for her for sharing her thoughts and experiences. It's a tough topic to talk about, and as we see here and elsewhere, people will immediately pick apart everyth…

That attitude doesn't help the cause of women in tech. It makes things worse. Machines don't have empathy. They do not care about feelings. Code is harsh. So are professional code reviewers. Therefore if you're a programmer, you will in fact spend a lot of time dealing with nitpicking issues, finding sources for claims you make, debating alternative theories and so on. If women can't even do that in debates they star…

Wow, please get that toxic attitude out of tech.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#259
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men don't want to even get close to the line of doing something that could be perceived as inappropriate Yeah I am wondering why someone would stick their neck out, especially if they have below-average social skills. Lots of personal liability for little personal gain, and #MeToo just publicized the existing uneasiness with professional interactions. It's not like any women helped when I was evaluating a career in…

Because social skills can be practiced and learned. #MeToo is about physical abuse and abuse of power, not some peer who has a hard time making eye contact.

What about the incel hate that feminists are throwing around nowadays? There have been 2-3 instances of self proclaimed incel men lashing out because they can't get laid, and they have been branded as psychopathic women-haters by the far-left. The #MeToo movement was a farce anyway, and led to a lot of false accusations that some men have to deal with forever now.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#260
post #81

Pretend you're a woman and then read the comments on this post. That makes it pretty obvious that one of the reasons women have a hard time feeling welcome in tech is because men don't listen to or empathize with them when they speak about their opinions or perspectives.

HackerNews isn't really a place to wave a empathy stick at. This is a place where years of work on startups and concepts come to die. If you came to find yes men, this is sadly the wrong place. Having said that, there are an unusual lot of people empathizing and acknowledging the issue that women are more alienated and that we should fix that. There is a severe lack of empathy on the other side though that cannot seem to fathom why men heed cautionary tales and choose not to risk their career over fighting for equity.
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