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A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

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Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#241

Post by bluGill »

ghaff wrote: post #59
walshemj wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to admit if you only started programming after you went to University your going to struggle with the course and afterwards work. You would not expect to do a Degree in English lit and have done no reading of the cannon before getting to university.

I’m honestly not so sure about that. The number of Western classics the average incoming English major has read is probably pretty small. And it really isn’t true of just about any other branch of engineering or science. How many bridges do you think someone majoring in civil engineering has designed? The fact that a lot of CS curricula only address those who have been programming as a hobby is a bug not a feature.

Reading "harry potter" does prepare you for reading classics. Sure the specific subject is different, but the practice reading makes you better at reading. When I went to college the only language I knew was BASIC, which of course was never touched in any class. However the practice and thought patterns that knowledge gave me did help.

I suppose civil engineers are more likely to start on an even ground because so few kids build a bridge. Even then I'd expect the kid who built a few "tree forts" to do better.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#242

Post by ravenstine »

ryanobjc wrote: post #107
kazinator wrote: post #28

> Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. "Honey, there is this random blogger who thinks I should befriend a girl in my company. It's supposedly not creepy or anything. What do you think?" If I didn't care what my wife thinks, I'd still have to think twice and consider the gender-political climate of the modern age. The mere perception of having some intention of wrongdoing can harm you. In all…

Here's your simple rule: https://medium.com/@annevictoriaclark/the-rock-test-a-hack-f... Quoting: "It’s as clear cut as this: Treat all women like you would treat Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson." and "But definitely don’t hit on her. It looks like she could kill you with the chair you’re sitting on." It's really that simple.

Isn't that just the problem? The moral of that insufferable article is not to treat women like Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson, but to fear women as if they're going to smash your head into the pavement like Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson for saying the wrong thing. If women as a group actually want men to see them this way, it's no wonder men don't want to #mentorher.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#243

Post by forapurpose »

yosito wrote: post #81

Pretend you're a woman and then read the comments on this post. That makes it pretty obvious that one of the reasons women have a hard time feeling welcome in tech is because men don't listen to or empathize with them when they speak about their opinions or perspectives.

> Pretend you're a woman and then read the comments on this post.

To carry your point a couple steps further, HN demonstrates the huge gender disparity in tech. Are there any women in this discussion? Even the parent assumes the reader is male, with good reason.

Most of the discussion is complaints about how hard it is for the commenter because of #metoo and other actions against sexual harassment and discrimination, and then other people agreeing. Imagine how different it would be if half the commenters were women.

Those voices are not only missing from HN, but probably from your workplace and classroom as well.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#244

Post by Draiken »

colemickens wrote: post #159
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #58

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

This comment is in every single one of these threads. I am not trying to be hyperbolic here, but it reminds me of people that act as if "laws" are the only thing keeping them from murdering their annoying neighbor. I don't know how to read it without thinking "wow, this confirms what women are saying about men". I mean, I guess I should be glad there's some self-awareness? Maybe I just can't empathize as a gay man th…

I believe comparing murder to sexual harassment is plain misleading.

If someone acuses someone else of murdering his neighbour they will have to go to all lenghts to prove it and it's a major moral line to cross.

If someone acuses someone else of sexually harassing a woman, whether they're guilty or not, they'd most likely lose their job straight away and be labelled as a "perv" or something similar.

I can't see how you can compare those.

In your particular case, the equivalent would be a man screaming "sexual harassment" from another man. There's a huge stigma accompanied with that. It's just not socially acceptable on society today. On top of that the homossexual community is another minority with all the weight of discrimination following it.

Let's say that happens. It's easier for you to prove he fired you because of your sexual orientation than for him to prove you harassed him.

I believe there's a reason you don't feel this threatened. It's because unfortunately that's how society works today.

[Edit: grammar]

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#245

Post by eberfreitas »

mikeash wrote: post #151
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #58

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

Women are people. Talk to them like people. If you’re so bad at socializing that you might accidentally harass someone, fix that! Don’t just retreat from the world because you can’t handle a basic skill. Edit: Interesting downvotes. Is it the suggestion that women are people, or the suggestion for self-improvement if you’re incapable of treating them accordingly?

I don't know why this is being downvoted. This should be the top response to this thread...

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#246

Post by walshemj »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #212
walshemj wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many other countries mandate that you study at school the subject (or direct precursors) you take at Uni. You not going to study Physics at Oxbridge if you don't have GCSE and A levels in the Subject why is EE and CS considered different. Some lists of the "English" cannon are 200+ texts and that's not counting some of the classical authors you should have read - and that's not counting any BAME texts you might want…

The English cannon should be shot. :-) The word you're looking for is "canon".

And Dyslexia sucks :-)

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#247

Post by modbait »

ryanobjc wrote: post #107
kazinator wrote: post #28

> Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. "Honey, there is this random blogger who thinks I should befriend a girl in my company. It's supposedly not creepy or anything. What do you think?" If I didn't care what my wife thinks, I'd still have to think twice and consider the gender-political climate of the modern age. The mere perception of having some intention of wrongdoing can harm you. In all…

Here's your simple rule: https://medium.com/@annevictoriaclark/the-rock-test-a-hack-f... Quoting: "It’s as clear cut as this: Treat all women like you would treat Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson." and "But definitely don’t hit on her. It looks like she could kill you with the chair you’re sitting on." It's really that simple.

This completely misses the point. The Rock isn't going to take things to HR or try to ruin anyone's life. The Rock is going to handle things like a man.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#248

Post by throwaway84742 »

mikeash wrote: post #169
smsm42 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, summarizing the comments here: A: Dudes, go befriend a girl, include her! It's not creepy! B: My anecdata experience suggests girls in my lab, where they were in minority, had no problem being included if they wished to, dudes were very eager to do it. C: Motivations of those dudes sound very dubious and creepy! Yup, yup.

You left out the creepy “have a pulse” part.

No, creepiness exists in your mind only. Believe it or not, we valued the fact that those women were there and we tried to help them out in whatever way we could. My field of study back then (guidance systems, weapons design) is even more male dominated than CS. All male peer groups are not a fun thing to be in.

To preclude the question, yes those girls did get asked for a date every now and then. If that’s wrong, I don’t want to be right.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#249

Post by stcredzero »

tptacek wrote: post #222
stcredzero wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just look at poor engineering practice, a lot of which is traceable to programming cultures that emerged from hobbyist computing. Do you have citations? I do think you're onto something here, though I don't think it's necessarily the best idea to vilify men or the masculine. Anthropologically speaking, didn't the subculture of hobbyist programming come out of the subculture of model train building?

I'm not "vilifying men or the masculine". I am a dude. Also a dad, of a STEM college boy and a STEM HS girl. I like beer and pork fat and whiskey and cars. I don't so much like video games, but only because I'd rather code or yell on message boards. I'm happy to keep talking to you about this stuff, but I will not do that if you're trying to trap me in some weird ideological conflict about the persecution of men. The…

I'm not "vilifying men or the masculine". I am a dude. Also a dad, of a STEM college boy and a STEM HS girl. Also a dad, of a STEM college boy and a STEM HS girl. I like beer and pork fat and whiskey and cars.

Glad to hear it.

I'm happy to keep talking to you about this stuff, but I will not do that if you're trying to trap me in some weird ideological conflict about the persecution of men.

Well, likewise. I don't want ideological conflict, though sometimes I feel it's foisted upon me. I'm also quite open to the idea that something in the subculture of programming could be pushing women away. Please don't take my mention of vilification as an accusation, and my apologies if it came across that way. I don't think anyone can deny that the whole area of discussion has a history of someone vilifying someone else, so I think that steering away from that is useful.

When have I ever tried to ideologically trap you? If there was ever anything ideological I'd associate with you, it's this phrase about, "the social compact." (Not that I'm absolutely against redistribution. It just sounds like reparations between sovereign powers from centuries ago.)

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#250

Post by wilsonnb »

ninkendo wrote: post #6
StreamBright wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dont give up, learn the basics of human interactions and get interested in people, your life will change.

I think it's a bit unfair to assume that people who are considered creepy must not know basic human interactions. A lot of people's initial opinion of you is guided subconsciously by how attractive you are. It's foolish to believe that looks don't play a huge role.

A lot of the attractiveness that they focus on isn't necessarily unchangeable, though.

Many people can significantly improve the first impression they make by having a nice haircut that fits your head shape and clothes that fit your body shape well, match each other well, and aren't out of place for the current season.

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