A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#141

Post by everdrive » Wed, May 09, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #58

> [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think th…

This is dead on. To be honest, girls can get creeped out whether I have platonic intent or not. Part of what defines a guy as "creepy" is the mere fact of whether or not he's reading a girl's signals correctly. This can be problematic, since it doesn't necessarily follow that failing to read a girl's boundaries correctly means I have anything other than platonic intent.

This can be circumvented for sure, but my usual method is simply to keep conversations about work only, and not to linger when a work topic has concluded. This might seem like overkill, but I'm trying t err on the side of caution here.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#142

Post by kazinator » Wed, May 09, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

ryanobjc wrote: post #107

kazinator wrote: post #28

> Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. "Honey, there is this random blogger who thinks I should befriend a girl in my company. It's supposedly not creepy or anything. What do you think?" If I didn't care what my wife thinks, I'd still have to think twice and consider the gender-political climate of the modern age. The mere perception of having some intention of wrongdoing can harm you. In all…

Here's your simple rule: https://medium.com/@annevictoriaclark/the-rock-test-a-hack-f... Quoting: "It’s as clear cut as this: Treat all women like you would treat Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson." and "But definitely don’t hit on her. It looks like she could kill you with the chair you’re sitting on." It's really that simple.

If someone happens to idolize "The Rock", the rule doesn't go down very well.

It possibly devolves to "behave like a bumbling star-struck fool around all women".

Or possibly to "treat women like goddesses". Example: if I run a cafe, and idolize "The Rock", should I give every woman a free coffee and muffin, because that's what I would do if "The Rock" walked in?

People who are famous get all sorts of unwanted attention that would easily amount to sexism or sexual misconduct if it were lavished upon a person because she's a woman. Fans want to get near you, touch you, take a picture with you and whatever.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#143

Post by octorian » Wed, May 09, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #56

ajkjk wrote: post #23

Most of the theories I've seen about the women-in-tech gap don't resonate with my experience because there was a very obvious 'women-in-tech' gap in about... 5th grade? in my (typical, I think) American elementary school. It was nerdy boys, almost entirely (I remember one exception), who wanted to stay after school playing games on the iMacs in our classroom, and I am pretty sure that it would only be the boys in my…

I keep reading about a "women in tech" gap, but if it exists, it must be regional. I've lived and worked, as a programmer, in the Dallas, TX area for over 20 years across 5 different employers. There have always been _lots_ of women in technology-related roles, everywhere. The vast majority of them (as well as the vast majority of the men) have been Indian, though. Is this different in San Francisco/Silicon Valley?

I think the gap varies dramatically by ethnicity. Its possible, perhaps likely, that different cultures have different biases towards women in tech fields. If you add that as a variable to all these charts, I think things may look significantly more skewed than they already do.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#144

Post by meheleventyone » Wed, May 09, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #26

modbait wrote: post #2

> Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. As an unattractive computer nerd, I've been regularly reminded my entire life that I am creepy. Skipping.

I have a talented, and wonderful, female dev on my team. One thing though:. She has described to me some of the male coders as being "creepers". When I asked for specifics, she couldn't provide them. She simply stated it was a "feeling". The one commonality I found with the creepers is that they are pretty clearly below average in looks. The question is whether this is a correlation or a casual factor. But definitely…

One way to possibly look at this is that she opened up to you because she felt you might understand, to her you responded sceptically and out of professional self-interest she downplayed the whole thing. That doesn’t mean those guys are necessarily creepers but that you’ve definitely lost her trust.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#145

Post by ravenstine » Wed, May 09, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

cbradshaw wrote: post #48

Is CS really “lauded as a haven for antisocial people?” Ouch. Some of the evidence in this article is anecdotal (female friend at a hackathon gets excluded by males, etc.). Has no one else seen the plethora of “Women in Tech” meet ups, events and hiring fairs? Anecdotally, I have several female friends that have interviewed and been hired at companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon. I understand this isn’t statisti…

Such anecdotes are also exemplary of how a lot of women(meaning not all) fail to question why it is they are being excluded. I think much of that comes down to how a lot of women don't understand just how intimidating they can be to men.

Women who are reading this should understand that you are undoubtedly intimidating at some level to some men out there. This is because we are not only frequently perceived as being "creepy", or trying to court women, but the perception is that society is asking a lot of specific treatment of women from men(one wrong word and we might have offended you somehow). Unless a man is attractive, it's much easier to avoid women all together.

I'm not saying it's a perfect system. It's mostly flawed. But I just wish that women would have a little more compassion and understanding to the male perspective. This article and others like it come off as externalizing that's basically concluding that men are being themselves too much because of ignorance and therefore need to change their behavior to comply with the wants of women, even though the reverse isn't being demanded of women; not often will you hear a man in tech say that women just need to toughen up. (by the way, I'm not even implying that)

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#146

Post by opportune » Wed, May 09, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

I see this as a problem companies need to solve, not individuals.

A man intentionally going out of their way to befriend a woman has much more to lose (potentially being considered a “creep” leading to a poor reputation that may spread) than they stand to gain compared to if they tried to befriend another man. But the main reason that can occur is the intentionality of making an “approach” like that. And yes, it will be construed as creepy a significant portion of the time, especially if you are unattractive or have poor social skills - that’s a fact of life.

If instead your boss/professor mandated a few small social events to get new hires to meet each other and existing employees one-on-one, there’s no way you can misconstrue getting to know someone as trying to flirt with them. Everybody wins.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#147

Post by nuna » Wed, May 09, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

Speaking not only as a Woman but as a Mother (Happy Mothers Day everyone) nothing would of persuade me away from STEM career. My parents were both in STEM and the love for science was as early as I can remember. HOWEVER on my most difficult days I feel like it is so hard because of the awfully short maternity leave, not enough vacation days to spend with family, no sick days to care for sick kids, 40 hour weeks when I can be done my work in 30 or less.

I dont feel negativity about interactions with other males in the industry. The bad interactions are usually from socially awkward individuals in general

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#148

Post by UncleMeat » Wed, May 09, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #32

ghaff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which also corresponded to home PCs and gaming consoles becoming common. So computers became more about a hobby with often limited social interaction as opposed to being solely about something that college students and adults pursuing computing as a profession did. Which arguably also led to this idea that if you haven’t been doing computing recreationally since you were a kid you obviously are not Passionate enough…

I have to admit if you only started programming after you went to University your going to struggle with the course and afterwards work. You would not expect to do a Degree in English lit and have done no reading of the cannon before getting to university.

The chair of the CS department at Stanford majored in Trombone.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#149

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, May 09, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

modbait wrote: post #2

> Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. As an unattractive computer nerd, I've been regularly reminded my entire life that I am creepy. Skipping.

As a nerd that grew up with nerd friends, I have seen firsthand how unsolicited social overtures may be cruelly rebuffed or punished.

When one of the consequences may be an uncomfortable conversation with the dean or with HR, it is completely unsurprising that male nerds will not make the first move socially. They have been trained to not do it.

Every last behavior that is rewarded as "flirting" from an attractive person is punished as "creepy" when it comes from an unattractive person. The best an ugly can hope for is to suppress their natural social grooming behaviors, and just be relentlessly neutral. It's much better than "creepy", as it still allows for a level of acquaintanceship that makes it possible to display non-physical qualities, such as a particularly well-developed skill, or a sense of humor.

"Go befriend a girl... it's not creepy." is something only a non-ugly person would think to say. Of course it's not creepy for them. Parent post is absolutely correct. If you're not pretty, it's creepy. If m'lady wants a friend, m'lady may approach on her own terms.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#150

Post by quickthrower2 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #113

quickthrower2 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why these jobs pay less? That is capitalism at work. Tech jobs are now essential to maintain competitive edge and keep the big profits going at companies, and they want to bid up to get good talent. Even small barely surviving companies have to pay good $ to get developers etc. because of the market forces. OTOH lets take a daycare teacher. They are being paid ultimately from the money average people have left over h…

The market is not a meritocracy.

Yes. I hope I didn't imply I like or condone the situation I described. I'm just the messenger.