The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers • Hacker News Board

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#341

Post by 21 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #324

21 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many ways of holding currency without being affected by inflation. This is what wealth management plans do. One simple tool used for this: > Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities (or TIPS) are the inflation-indexed bonds issued by the U.S. Treasury. The principal is adjusted to the Consumer Price Index (CPI), the commonly used measure of inflation. When the CPI rises, the principal adjusts upward. If the…

What they are doing is, by definition, not hoarding their cash. TIPS are a form of investment usually classified as very-low risk (but correspondingly relatively low gains).

You are splitting hairs here. When people say that Apple is sitting on cash obviously they do not mean that they have 250 billion in one current bank account.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#342

Post by gamblor956 » Wed, May 09, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

epanchin wrote: post #7

al2o3cr wrote: post #2

“You couldn’t pay me to keep it with a bank.” Because if there's one thing banks are known for, it's running off with client assets suddenly and without warning. Oh wait, that's cryptocurrency startups...

Two things they are known for; Not allowing very large balances to be withdrawn at once. Complying with asset freeze orders.

Not allowing very large balances to be withdrawn at once.

Wait, are we talking about MtGoX? Or Coinbase? Or Bitfinex? Or any of the many smaller exchanges that did the same thing right before they collapsed?

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#343

Post by ryanmonroe » Wed, May 09, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #312

ryanmonroe wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Investments need to have intrinsic value. > there’s no value in any particular set of random numbers What is the "intrinsic value" in e.g. an iPhone? Would that value exist without humans? I would say no, it only has value because people are willing to pay for it. So I'm left wondering what principled distinction you can draw between a particular set of random numbers and a particular arrangement of metal and glass…

Intrinsic value is a value that derives from the use of properties of the thing. It's not a derived value that requires the imposition of an additional layer of context to make the property valuable. The iPhone, or any other phone, has the intrinsic value of being usable as a computing device, entertainment device, communications device, camera, thrown weapon, etc. If you want to be pedantic about it, the components…

> The iPhone, or any other phone, has the intrinsic value of being usable as a computing device, entertainment device, communications device, camera

Okay, but you're just shifting the value down the line. What makes computing or entertainment valuable, other than the fact that they are things humans want?

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#344

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, May 09, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

blueprint wrote: post #326

TeMPOraL wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life isn't outgrowing Earth's capacity to absorb sunlight (nor Earth's capacity to radiate heat). Earth's energy flux is good for supporting life for the next 2 billion years. Cryptocurrencies are designed to waste increasing amounts of energy that grow both with time and the popularity of the system. Right now we're not able to pull energy from Sun fast enough to power them (see all the global energy issues, fossil…

> Right now we're not able to pull energy from Sun fast enough to power them (see all the global energy issues, fossil fuels, etc.) Actually there are thousands of other things that take way more energy and pollute way more than cryptocurrency mining. In fact you can locate your miners anywhere, unlike, say, your shipping vessels. So there's an incentive to place the miners next to, say, hydrothermal plants. Why aren…

> Why aren't you fervently arguing for the other orders-of-magnitude-larger polluters to be replaced? Lord knows we have alternatives to them too.

Because here I'm arguing against the trend, not just absolute magnitude. Almost every other human endeavour has incentives to reduce waste and upkeep. Cryptocurrencies require ever increasing energy use for maintaining the system.

(Note that I also frequently argue against various zero-sum games in the economy, like advertising, which are yet another unnecessary waste of precious resources. I try to be consistent with that position.)

> what is going to happen to mining after bitcoins are no longer emitted?

Isn't it true that Bitcoin requires continuous energy expenditure through mining to maintain the integrity of the network?

> That's a lot of energy! Could you provide some kind of grounds for your opinion here?

I'm talking about the dream/goal scenario of cryptocurrency advocates, in which cryptocurrencies replace fiat and become the new basis for the entire global economy. And the grounds are that the system is designed in a way that you literally make money burning electricity, so as long as electricity is cheaper than payoff somewhere (or you can steal some), there's strong incentive for everyone to try and burn energy.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#345

Post by s73v3r_ » Wed, May 09, 2018, 6:05 PM UTC

unit91 wrote: post #71

This kind of debate by selective vocabulary is frustrating. If a poor or middle class person sits on the cash he has, he's "saving". If a wealthy person sits on the cash he has, he's "hoarding". Regardless of the topic at hand, let's be consistent enough in our terms to think and discuss the issues fairly and clearly without all the pejorative terms. If we have to resort to name-calling, we might not have a very good…

It's almost like the magnitude has something to do with it.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#346

Post by jonknee » Wed, May 09, 2018, 6:05 PM UTC

vokep wrote: post #329

jonknee wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, essential spending would happen. But why upgrade your car, or go out to eat, or go on a vacation, or all the other non-essential spending that powers our economy? Even a very small change in these behaviors has huge effects because one person's spending is another person's income.

so it would boost essential spending but take away from useless consumerism spending? And thats a bad thing?

Consumer spending going away means business spending going away which means jobs go away... Which means more consumer spending goes away and you can fill in the rest.

Personal Consumption Expenditures make up ~70% of the US GDP. Unless you really enjoy recessions you don't want to see it go down.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#347

Post by acdha » Wed, May 09, 2018, 6:11 PM UTC

blueprint wrote: post #321

acdha wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don’t you demonstrate some of that alleged understanding to answer the question? Start by producing evidence supporting your belief that there is some significant problem with transaction history modification and move on to why that problem cannot be more efficiently addressed using proven cost-effective techniques.

Maybe try Googling for once

This is not an effective way to convince someone you know what you’re talking about.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#348

Post by coryfklein » Wed, May 09, 2018, 6:19 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #306

charlesdm wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that reasoning, investing in gold is also speculation. Because it only has minimal industrial uses and most of its value comes from the fact that people say it has value. And a piece of art is not a productive asset either. Yet, it can and will have value. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that. I'm happy to invest in things that I believe are likely to go up in value, whether those are compani…

Yes, buying gold with the intention of selling it later is speculation. Buying anything with the intention of selling it later for a higher price is speculation. If you were a jewelry-maker, I suppose you could call buying gold an investment.

> Buying anything with the intention of selling it later for a higher price is speculation.

I'm buying shares of an S&P 500 index now with the intention of selling them at a higher price in ~40-50 years. Am I a speculator or an investor?

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#349

Post by coryfklein » Wed, May 09, 2018, 6:21 PM UTC

dragandj wrote: post #213

charlesdm wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that reasoning, investing in gold is also speculation. Because it only has minimal industrial uses and most of its value comes from the fact that people say it has value. And a piece of art is not a productive asset either. Yet, it can and will have value. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that. I'm happy to invest in things that I believe are likely to go up in value, whether those are compani…

> By that reasoning, investing in gold is also speculation. What else? However, gold has some utility as jewelry etc. Cryptocurrencies are (currently) pure speculation.

> Cryptocurrencies are (currently) pure speculation.

False. Cryptocurrencies are _mostly_ speculation. Go to any dark web site and everything for sale is being transacted in crypto. Look at XRP - there are clearly large commercial organizations using that crypto for business purposes.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#350

Post by coryfklein » Wed, May 09, 2018, 6:25 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #34

epanchin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things they are known for; Not allowing very large balances to be withdrawn at once. Complying with asset freeze orders.

And you think this bank (re: the article) falls outside of those? You won't be able to get your btc out quickly in this one either. Same with online exchanges for that matter. They also have much lower transaction fees.

Exchanging directly for cash at or above market rates is definitely practical with LocalBitcoins. There are a large number of brokers there that do it professionally and value their reputation on the platform much higher than they value the potential for ripping you off.

Of course, if you need to liquidate $1B in Bitcoin, that's going to take time, but you can still do it much faster than you could get it out of a Cypress bank in 2014.