Live data from Hacker News

Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

reuters.com

131–140 of 189 posts

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#131
post #72

This is like two old investors in buggy whips talking scaring people off of internal combustion engines. They have no idea what they're looking at but they'll make pronouncements anyway. Bitcoin etc are currencies native to the network environment just as cash is native to the meatspace. Both have their advantages and shortcomings. Wisdom is found in using things if they serve you and leaving them alone if they don't…

> It's even less wise to take advice from those who speak from ignorance.

Being in Bitcoin since 2011, I've found most Bitcoin advocates tend to be of the ignorant sort with regard to both the technology and the economics. They tend to gather their information from what they're told to think on places like Reddit, and are quicker to communicate via memes than have an actual real conversation.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#132

I'd argue, cryptocurrencies are the worst thing to happen to such a great concept, decentralized agreements. Consensus algorithms have shifted focus away from decentralization and towards pushing cryptocurrency agendas. Shame!

Yeah, and they haven't been terribly great for the gaming market either, as they're consuming production of graphics card components.

I find this to be such a curious argument: "The graphics card industry would be so much better off if these cryptocurrency people would stop giving AMD and Nvidia so much money!"

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#133
post #57

Fred Wilson of Union Square Ventures presents a counterargument to Buffett: https://avc.com/2018/05/is-buying-crypto-assets-investing/

> "They are the fuel that powers a new form of technology infrastructure that is being built on top of the foundational internet protocols." I can't get my head around this sentence. > Bitcoin and Zcash are stores of value that allow users to participate in this decentralized application space without the need for fiat currencies. That is exactly what collectibles are. Art has been used in this way for a long time. h…

I've been a long-time AVC commenter. It's marketing speak trying to legitimize attaching an added cost of the Pyramid-Ponzi scheme of incentivized crypto-assets into a transactional layer.

In the end it will cost less in the short-term (per transaction costs) and in the long-term (the unnecessary, unreasonable amount of wealth reallocated weighted towards earlier adopters) to compete not using blockchain for everything - especially not incentivized crypto-assets - as they're banking on and investing in perpetuating an ecosystem for.

Competition will exist to show the cost differences, however there will continue to be a strong and growing push by those who are already vested in and own any number of these incentivized crypto-assets, and the platforms/services that have tied themselves into them.

It's understandable that VC would enter the market once it gained enough traction, at least once the ecosystem matured enough, once there was enough hype, and gaps in the market were spotted by competent teams who were wanting to fill them, e.g. Coinbase as one example of USV's investments; selling services during a "gold rush" is likely the safest bet and most profitable.

Albert, another partner as USV has been evolving his understanding and has been working on a book called World After Capital - http://worldaftercapital.org/

USV as a whole have been evolving a thesis related to decentralization, which I believe they've perhaps mispurposefully attributed to being solved by blockchain; the thesis and conversation that Fred posted around years ago was relating to the idea of the The Independent Web - my blog post on this from 7 years ago: http://mattamyers.tumblr.com/post/2903098250/the-independent... - "The Independent Web, How Can It Work?"

The answer of trying to create collaboration by aligning everyone in a Pyramid-Ponzi scheme however is wrong and immoral IMHO, and there's a better way - as even with decentralization you still need centralization for governance, as without it you allow bad actors to flourish - and with the current system of incentivized crypto-assets, existing/known bad money certainly has entered that ecosystem.

Whenever I write responses like this to Fred or other people's posts who seem all-in for incentivized crypto-assets, the responses are none-to-shallow in depth. And I have gone into much more nuanced detail in other comments relating to why incentivized crypto-assets are overall bad for society. Perhaps the most purposefully ignored long-term negative is that there is a tipping point of adoption - let's say it's at "40%" adoption - where after that tipping point those later adopters are simply realizing the added cost of the increasing cost per "coin," and so they are no longer incentivized to collaborate. The danger here for society however is you now have up to "40%" of society vested into making sure this gets adopted fully by society, including any number of bad actors - who perhaps will have then hundreads of billions-to-trillions of dollars they want realized; this could be as subtle as enough politicians getting elected into government, or bribing existing, or of course the worst.

The solution, if blockchain is a necessary technology to use, is to have all existing fiat currencies globally merge - and only when governments are ready and under no pressure or force (and with no lobbying efforts by incentivized crypto-asset groups trying to indoctrinate based on their biased desires or ask to not be regulated..) - into a single digital ledger/currency. And with this solution instead of "you" giving me cash in exchange for a digital asset, "you" give cash to that government's mint and it gets converted into the digital ledger/removed from regular circulation; the conversion rate would likely only simply need to match going exchange rates between currencies - there will be some nuance to explore of course.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#134
post #51

Buffet's investing strategy is, and has always been, look for the intrinsic value in a company, buy them, and then hold on forever. As part of that intrinsic value is the management teams that are running the companies. A strong team is as valuable as any other asset. When Buffet does buy a company, he'll generally leave management in place and not interfere in the day to day running of the company. Bitcoin has no ma…

Further, when you buy a part of a company, you are buying a piece of a functioning economic unit. When you loan money, you are finding economic activity. When you buy a Bitcoin, you are helping to convert electricity to heat.

A thing doesn't have to be "a piece of a functioning economic unit" to be worth owning.

Examples: copper, gold, land, art, wireless spectrum, currency.

There's a perfectly valid rationale to hold each of these assets, and none of them are "productive" by themselves.

Each of these has scarcity and utility. That's what matters.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#135
post #98
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a succesfull investor with decades of won bets but the amount of people pitching Bitcoin to me and wanting to talk about it drove me crazy for awhile. I can’t imagine the frustration Warren Buffet feels when surrounded on all sides by digital snake oil peddlers.

Well, my point is that Buffett usually just uses some sound byte to bash it, like 'rat poison squared'. Give us an actual argument. Or convince us that he's done significant research into BTC to come to this conclusion. It's just frustrating to hear him make a very outlandish claim like this, and then not educate us with the explanation.

His argument against it, much like gold, would be that it is merely a store of value rather than a productive asset (e.g., crop-yielding land, companies, etc.).

If you read up on his comments on hold (someone copy-pasted it elsewhere in this thread), you will see that this is nothing more than his investment thesis. It seems to work well for him.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#136
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and they haven't been terribly great for the gaming market either, as they're consuming production of graphics card components.

I find this to be such a curious argument: "The graphics card industry would be so much better off if these cryptocurrency people would stop giving AMD and Nvidia so much money!"

You make a great point in the long run; more money flowing into graphics cards should imply more R&D and improved technology (although if there's a lack of synergy between "developments good for faster graphics" and "developments good for faster mining," I'd expect innovation to follow the money).

... in the short run, the production space hasn't ramped up to meet the demand from a new consumer sector and my graphics cards have jumped in price. ;) And (depending on how bullish you are on the notion of crypto solvers being a permanent need and not a bubble) the market may be setting up for a crash if these currencies turn out to be a flash-in-the-pan and demand evaporates overnight for solver hardware. I'm not super-convinced of that crash outcome though; it's a risk, but I'd rate it a low one.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#137
post #72

This is like two old investors in buggy whips talking scaring people off of internal combustion engines. They have no idea what they're looking at but they'll make pronouncements anyway. Bitcoin etc are currencies native to the network environment just as cash is native to the meatspace. Both have their advantages and shortcomings. Wisdom is found in using things if they serve you and leaving them alone if they don't…

> It's even less wise to take advice from those who speak from ignorance. Being in Bitcoin since 2011, I've found most Bitcoin advocates tend to be of the ignorant sort with regard to both the technology and the economics. They tend to gather their information from what they're told to think on places like Reddit, and are quicker to communicate via memes than have an actual real conversation.

We've been in it about the same length of time. I agree with your assessment.

A lot of trade in the stock markets is based on similar dynamics: lack of clue on the investor's part, just go with what someone told you.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#138
post #38

Buffett should follow his own advice, and stick to commenting on things that he understands.

He seems to understand intrinsic value pretty well.

If there's one thing I've learned in my 45 years, it's that actually no one has figured yet what the term "intrinsic value" really means. The more you dig into that term it just ends up meaning "what someone else is willing to pay for it" blended together with some fuzzy subjective notions of morality.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#139
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this to be such a curious argument: "The graphics card industry would be so much better off if these cryptocurrency people would stop giving AMD and Nvidia so much money!"

You make a great point in the long run; more money flowing into graphics cards should imply more R&D and improved technology (although if there's a lack of synergy between "developments good for faster graphics" and "developments good for faster mining," I'd expect innovation to follow the money). ... in the short run, the production space hasn't ramped up to meet the demand from a new consumer sector and my graphics…

Right, but the "short run" argument sort of sounds like saying "I hate people that wear green tshirts because they keep buying Teslas and people like me who wear red tshirts can't get one because of them!"

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#140
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great point in the long run; more money flowing into graphics cards should imply more R&D and improved technology (although if there's a lack of synergy between "developments good for faster graphics" and "developments good for faster mining," I'd expect innovation to follow the money). ... in the short run, the production space hasn't ramped up to meet the demand from a new consumer sector and my graphics…

Right, but the "short run" argument sort of sounds like saying "I hate people that wear green tshirts because they keep buying Teslas and people like me who wear red tshirts can't get one because of them!"

"I hate Teslas because they're consuming all the lithium for their gigantic car batteries and regular folk like me who just want a humble smartphone can't afford one anymore." ;)

I could change my t-shirt color, but I can't change the thing I actually want to do with the hardware or the configuration I need it in that's optimal for my use case.

Post reply on HN