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Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

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Re: Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

#91

Post by delbel »

grok2 wrote: post #60

A little while back, there was this submission to hacker news that didn't get much traction/attention, but which was about a research study that seemed to suggest that Vitamin D deficiency was a symptom of an underlying problem and just supplementing with Vitamin D was not sufficient as a fix and that the underlying cause of the deficiency the study said could be inflammation related to bacterial infection. https://l…

I didn't know about this study or the post, but I have also brought this up before and downvoted to hell. Bacteria that can evade the immune system can eat up all your vitamin D and wreck havoc. The solution is to eat other beneficial bacteria that eat them or their food and balance things out. This bacteria is LAB pro-biotics you can find in the store. Along with that, eating fiber to feed the pro-biotics so they don't die off. But if you eat health organic food, you get all of this. There's a GMO bacteria used as a pesticide that might be causing this. Anyway, if you bring these things up you are called a conspiracy theorist on this site. Its just common sense. Eat good non-GMO and non-gmo bacteria treated food with fiber, stay away from junk food, take pro-biotics, get sunlight.

Re: Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

#92

Post by jm__87 »

pasabagi wrote: post #88
jimnotgym wrote: post #30

As these kind of stories are so popular on HN, I recently started curating a list at https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression I hope it helps someone one day.

I appreciate you're trying to help with this list, but as somebody who suffers from depression, I can't really imagine anything more harmful. If you're suffering from depression, you're likely in partial denial. Going to a doctor represents a big change, and a big acknowledgement. Techniques like 'getting sunlight' and 'doing exercise' are infinitely more attractive - and infinitely more likely to degrade into new wa…

Wouldn't acknowledging that you're suffering from depression and researching a list of things to help be the opposite of denial? I don't doubt there are depressed people who are in denial, but if you acknowledge your own depression and still avoid doctors and therapy, perhaps it is more likely due to some combination of things like shame, fatigue, apathy or hopelessness which often come with the depression itself? The mindfulness based cognitive therapy from my post and the CBT option recommended on another post here are both things you do with a therapist, by the way. Also I don't see how meditation, self care and better routine could be bad for someone suffering from depression, even if it doesn't lift them out of it, so I would still say this is solid advice.

Edit: I would also like to clarify that if you feel depressed you should absolutely go to a doctor and try out therapy. If you don't want to do this, you need to ask yourself why you wouldn't want to go to see the people who are most qualified to help you. Is it simply because you actually don't believe a doctor or therapist can help you or is it because you feel your case is hopeless? In either case, I would say then that you have nothing to lose and you might as well go try it out anyway, just in case you are wrong. If you're right, you can have the satisfaction of feeling vindicated. If you're wrong, you'll feel better. It's a win-win.

If the reason you don't want professional help is that you are ashamed someone may find out, then you need to start looking at the problem a bit more objectively. You simply have a problem that needs fixing, why not get the best people to help you fix it? And another point, if someone else judges you for wanting to feel better and have more to offer for everyone else around you, should you really give their judgement much weight? If neither of these help, maybe for right now you can just ask yourself if the shame you're predicting you'll feel in the short run is a cheap enough price to pay to feel better in the long run. I bet it is.

Lastly, if you're feeling like getting professional help is just too much effort, it can help to break things up in to steps. Grab a piece of paper and a pen and write down a plan to get help. Maybe step one of the plan is you just jump on Google and find a doctor or therapist near you. Step 2 can be to call and book an appointment, step 3 can be to write down exactly what you want to discuss in your visit, step 4 can be planning how to get to the appointment (maybe plan to ask someone close for a ride or take a taxi if driving or walking there is too much), and so on. Each time you complete a step, just cross it out. With each step completed, you're on your way to feeling better and you can feel a sense of accomplishment.

Re: Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

#93

Post by pasabagi »

jm__87 wrote: post #92
pasabagi wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate you're trying to help with this list, but as somebody who suffers from depression, I can't really imagine anything more harmful. If you're suffering from depression, you're likely in partial denial. Going to a doctor represents a big change, and a big acknowledgement. Techniques like 'getting sunlight' and 'doing exercise' are infinitely more attractive - and infinitely more likely to degrade into new wa…

Wouldn't acknowledging that you're suffering from depression and researching a list of things to help be the opposite of denial? I don't doubt there are depressed people who are in denial, but if you acknowledge your own depression and still avoid doctors and therapy, perhaps it is more likely due to some combination of things like shame, fatigue, apathy or hopelessness which often come with the depression itself? Th…

Denial is rarely a complete thing. Most people will say they aren't 'that' depressed right up to being put in a clinic.

People really overestimate the organizational capacity of somebody in deep depression. Getting a doctor's appointment, showing up, then talking honestly about your problems is really hard. It's doubly hard if you think you have alternatives.

Getting medical help is a really big step. Taking St-John's Wort, or eating more cumin, isn't. And that would be great if they were equivalent. But for a lot of people, they absolutely aren't. Otherwise doctors would prescribe exercise and sunlight.

I'd be really happy if every advice column on depression just told people to go to a doctor. I mean, jesus, imagine if somebody put a github repo up about how to self-treat cholera! Depression is really dangerous. It kills a lot of people. If you have it, you should talk to a professional - not read random studies that are probably p-hacking anyway.

Re: Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

#94

Post by jseliger »

delbel wrote: post #91
grok2 wrote: post #60

A little while back, there was this submission to hacker news that didn't get much traction/attention, but which was about a research study that seemed to suggest that Vitamin D deficiency was a symptom of an underlying problem and just supplementing with Vitamin D was not sufficient as a fix and that the underlying cause of the deficiency the study said could be inflammation related to bacterial infection. https://l…

I didn't know about this study or the post, but I have also brought this up before and downvoted to hell. Bacteria that can evade the immune system can eat up all your vitamin D and wreck havoc. The solution is to eat other beneficial bacteria that eat them or their food and balance things out. This bacteria is LAB pro-biotics you can find in the store. Along with that, eating fiber to feed the pro-biotics so they do…

This comment is interesting but I downvoted it for one reason: "Citation(s) needed."

Re: Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

#95

Post by delbel »

jseliger wrote: post #94
delbel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know about this study or the post, but I have also brought this up before and downvoted to hell. Bacteria that can evade the immune system can eat up all your vitamin D and wreck havoc. The solution is to eat other beneficial bacteria that eat them or their food and balance things out. This bacteria is LAB pro-biotics you can find in the store. Along with that, eating fiber to feed the pro-biotics so they do…

This comment is interesting but I downvoted it for one reason: "Citation(s) needed."

if you were a professional or academic scholar requesting the citation, I feel that you would be entitled to that information. But to many people who aren't abuse this as some kind of sociopathic way of bullying people with contrarian information by downvoting, and I'm sick of it. It was a nice way to spark up a conversation a while ago but now its a toxic tool of sociopaths

Re: Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

#96

Post by jm__87 »

pasabagi wrote: post #93
jm__87 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't acknowledging that you're suffering from depression and researching a list of things to help be the opposite of denial? I don't doubt there are depressed people who are in denial, but if you acknowledge your own depression and still avoid doctors and therapy, perhaps it is more likely due to some combination of things like shame, fatigue, apathy or hopelessness which often come with the depression itself? Th…

Denial is rarely a complete thing. Most people will say they aren't 'that' depressed right up to being put in a clinic. People really overestimate the organizational capacity of somebody in deep depression. Getting a doctor's appointment, showing up, then talking honestly about your problems is really hard. It's doubly hard if you think you have alternatives. Getting medical help is a really big step. Taking St-John'…

While I don't share your pessimism for self help, I do understand where you're coming from and I updated my post to make it very clear that I do agree that those suffering from depression should seek out professional help as well as offering some advice for doing so.

Re: Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

#97

Post by jimnotgym »

pasabagi wrote: post #93
jm__87 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't acknowledging that you're suffering from depression and researching a list of things to help be the opposite of denial? I don't doubt there are depressed people who are in denial, but if you acknowledge your own depression and still avoid doctors and therapy, perhaps it is more likely due to some combination of things like shame, fatigue, apathy or hopelessness which often come with the depression itself? Th…

Denial is rarely a complete thing. Most people will say they aren't 'that' depressed right up to being put in a clinic. People really overestimate the organizational capacity of somebody in deep depression. Getting a doctor's appointment, showing up, then talking honestly about your problems is really hard. It's doubly hard if you think you have alternatives. Getting medical help is a really big step. Taking St-John'…

I will try and answer both of your posts together if that is OK.

1) I have suffered from and lived with sufferers of depression for my whole life. It is rare for me to say so on a public forum, but there it is.

2) I have been in a dangerous place and sought medical help. I was prescribed drugs which had catastrophic side-effects on me, and which persisted for years after I went through the horrible withdrawal process that the said drug causes. The drug was closer to killing me than the depression. I taught myself a kind of CBT (I didn't know it was called that back then) and I have been coping drug free for nearly two decades.

3) In the UK mental-health services are barely existent except for those in the most extreme circumstances, after nearly a decade of government cuts. Doctors prescribe drugs because that is all they can do. They refer you to counseling, but you face months of wait. Anecdotally it seems that most depression suffers never get the therapy that may really help them. Much of this is cultural in that somehow in 2018 people still think depression is not a real disease.

4) These stories are extremely popular on HN, and often make it to the front page, which suggests there is a demand.

> probably p-hacking anyway.

5) What an absurd slur.

> doctors would prescribe exercise and sunlight

6) They most certainly do exactly this. I have heard it with my own ears. A doctor told a person I know that they should try St. Johns Wort before risking anti-depressents.

> jesus, imagine if somebody put a github repo up about how to self-treat cholera!

7) Is a strawman, but since you brought it up, prevention of Cholera is most definitely a self-help exercise of some worth. I believe the main treatment is 'hydration' btw. I urge all Cholera suffers who are able to to seek out medical attention, for those with no access to it, hydration would seem like a valuable self-help technique.

> I'd be really happy if every advice column on depression just told people to go to a doctor

8) This list does that in the opening section. It suggests discussing the articles with a doctor too.

> I went through a period of simply trying everything anybody recommended, no matter how ridiculous

9) The antithesis of researching a list of articles and being well informed when you chose to visit your medical professional to discuss it with them. If you are in the frame of mind to try snake-oil, I seriously doubt a list like this would make any difference either way.

10) Not all depression sufferers are 'cured' by their doctor. Not all react well (or at all) to drugs. Everyone I know who has learned to manage their depression has (once they have got through the denial) done it through lifestyle changes, CBT, lighting, exercise etc. If you search through the links you will find novel drug therapies which are helping people (dramatically) who have had no benefit at all from existing medicine, and have been shown to do so in a peer reviewed study (before you repeat that slur). If a close family member of mine was in that situation I have no doubt at all that I would be keen for them to find out about it and go and discuss it with their doctor.

11) I don't feel the need to protect anyone from information.

Re: Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

#98

Post by jimnotgym »

Franciscouzo wrote: post #73
jimnotgym wrote: post #30

As these kind of stories are so popular on HN, I recently started curating a list at https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression I hope it helps someone one day.

Here's another list that might be of interest: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/16/things-that-sometimes-h...

What a great article. Thank yo for sharing

Re: Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

#99

Post by ryanmerket »

oliwarner wrote: post #86
tree_of_item wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get most of your vitamin D from skin exposure to sunlight Is this even true? How are you going to get enough sunlight while living in, say, the US Northeast, or not being white?

In the UK you can easily get all your vitamin D from sunlight for 6 months of the year[0,1]. That said, more and more foods are being vitamin supplemented, or available in fortified versions, especially for children (eg milk, yoghurts). I doubt it'll become "standard" like thiamin and others in flour (in the UK at least) because you can overdose. [0] http://www.bad.org.uk/for-the-public/skin-cancer/vitamin-d (footnot…

I recently read this paper. It says there was a major mathematical error in the meta study used to dictate the Vitamin D standards for many countries: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28768407/

Re: Prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in adults admitted to psychiatric hospital

#100

Post by markroseman »

jimnotgym wrote: post #30

As these kind of stories are so popular on HN, I recently started curating a list at https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression I hope it helps someone one day.

I think this is a nice start. I'd like to see you take it further.

The problem I have with your list is that it treats depression as a black box, and the solution is to throw random things at it until something sticks. There are things that can be done to better identify underlying causes. For example, your list should touch on deficiencies in iron and B12. Your symptoms can also be a clue as to which neurotransmitters are involved.

Solutions need to tie back to causes. Vitamin D supplements are useful if you have a substantial Vitamin D deficiency. All the serotonin supplements in the world aren't going to help if your issue isn't a shortage of serotonin or its precursors. Understanding how different solutions relate to causes (and therefore relate to each other) gives you a smarter way to approach solutions.

Full disclosure.. my psychiatrist wife and I are working on a book to help people approach mental health care in a more systematic way, trying to take the magic black box out of it. A big part is also on how you can best work with the resources you have available (we're in Canada, so different but comparable range of limitations as in the UK).

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