Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#591

Post by jonathanyc » Sat, May 05, 2018, 12:45 PM UTC

okfine wrote: post #305

jonathanyc wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is, what would change the situation? Not some change of heart by companies to finally do the right thing, or come to their senses about what their self-interest really is. Those aren't real things. This is a horrible false dichotomy. It takes time for companies to decide on and implement changes. Do you think that companies magically always make optimal decisions at all times? You claim that other peop…

I didn't any say of those things! From my perspective, you've put my words through a really intense filter and then gotten angry at your filter. For example, I didn't suggest that the government should do such a thing. It's a hideous idea, besides being an obvious legal and political impossibility. What I said was that if they did, it might affect the software salary market in Canada, in contrast to other things peop…

I get what you’re saying about feeling that other people are putting your words through a filter, but if you are concerned about that you seriously need to look at how you are reading other people’s comments. You wrote a whole comment based on making fun of my use of the word “good” as “magical,” which is the least charitable interpretation of an admittedly ambiguous word and not at all what I meant. It’s also clear from context (again from the article) that I didn’t mean “good” in a moral sense but good as in “these are good wages if you want employees.”

Conversely I don’t see where I’ve attributed to you anything you haven’t said.

To conclude by returning to something of substance, calling the market “oddly imaginary” and companies trying to make rational decisions as “not a real thing” is incredibly naive. You seem to think that the only thing that can affect the “fundamentals” of the situation is government intervention. I’m far from a libertarian, and even to me that does not at all resemble this situation. This is a simple case of companies in an area paying too low wages, employees leaving, and companies having to catch up.

You seem to be misinterpreting everyone else’s arguments as anthropomorphizing companies, which is not at all what people are doing when they are talking about a market. I think this derived from your fundamental understanding of how a market economy might work in the real world.

Companies and workers both take time to adjust to changing situations, and more importantly, situations can change, and the government shouldn’t always intervene to bring things back to the way they were. Otherwise we would still be a nation of farmers.

I’m not sure what else to say, and I seriously don’t want to sound mean or trite (like “just read a book!”), but I really think you should try and learn a little about economics. I think this is where your misunderstanding about anthropomorphization stems from. I tried to find a good introductory article, but I haven’t had much luck; here is one: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market.asp

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#592

Post by Pica_soO » Sat, May 05, 2018, 12:51 PM UTC

whack wrote: post #66

Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes, Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn worsen the problem even further. Some solutions I c…

Sorry, your strategy by asymmetry of the monetary forces involved can not work out for Canada.

What really prevents braindrain on a large scale is stationary opportunity's.

Take Shenzhen for example, it is one ocean away from California and should be constantly bleeding out towards it. The contrary is the case, due to the relatively cheap and flexible factories of hardware- being opportunities for which California cant or wont any longer compete.

But shouldn't all these Chinese hardware founders create fab-less hw-design companies and mass-migrate? No, because connections and opportunities would not migrate with them.

Such opportunities are usually created by long-term protectionism and clever industrial policies.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#593

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sat, May 05, 2018, 1:01 PM UTC

jonathanyc wrote: post #591

okfine wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't any say of those things! From my perspective, you've put my words through a really intense filter and then gotten angry at your filter. For example, I didn't suggest that the government should do such a thing. It's a hideous idea, besides being an obvious legal and political impossibility. What I said was that if they did, it might affect the software salary market in Canada, in contrast to other things peop…

I get what you’re saying about feeling that other people are putting your words through a filter, but if you are concerned about that you seriously need to look at how you are reading other people’s comments. You wrote a whole comment based on making fun of my use of the word “good” as “magical,” which is the least charitable interpretation of an admittedly ambiguous word and not at all what I meant. It’s also clear…

Or even this: https://www.xkcd.com/1984/

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#594

Post by t1o5 » Sat, May 05, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

jkaplowitz wrote: post #434

t1o5 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than Montreal's cheap cost of living and good public transportation, everything else is not so great. Talented engineers graduating from McGill and Concordia are leaving the province in droves because of Quebec's weird language laws [1], high taxes and obsolete immigration system. (Eg: KFC was renamed to PFK to comply with the language laws) MIDI, the immigration department of Quebec which has fully autonomy fo…

I'm a US-citizen immigrant to Canada, selected by Quebec and living in Montreal. Many of these assertions, though commonly believed, are half true. The Global Skills Strategy that the federal government here is running includes tech workers, and yes it includes Quebec. MIDI has facilitated processing for many of those. For kids of people here on temporary work permits, including that type, English schools are allowed…

The Global Skills Strategy is only for a certain category of employers, mainly large ones. A startup cannot use that to hire a worker. [1]

> more points for an applicant with a bachelor's degree in computer science from anywhere in the world

Quebec's immigration system is not point based as of now. Its FCFS. Though they say its points based, there is no indication from statistics that MIDI selects workers based on points. In fact, MIDI is a blackbox when it comes to revealing the strategy that they use to select workers while Federal Express Entry is fully transparent. Bachelor's degree holders in Comp. Sc are waiting for more than 5 years for a CSQ from Quebec, while they can immigrate to other provinces within months !

There are reports of systematic discrimination by MIDI regarding the selection of applicants based on their citizenship. As a US citizen, its no wonder you are given priority than applicants from third world countries. There are two class action suites against MIDI currently regarding systematic discrimination in selecting applicants. [2] [5] [7]

Ombudsman's Annual Report About MIDI says there are 31,378 applications pending as of March 31, 2017. [3]

> Quebec will still give them a leg up based on that experience if they later apply for permanent residence

That has been on hold with no explanation from MIDI since 2017. [4]

MIDI systematically discriminates applicants even in French priority category (PEQ) if they are from China or India [5]

A forum where applicants discuss about delays from MIDI [6]

[1] https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

[2] https://imk.ca/en/rahim-and-rhia-basnet-v-midi/

[3] http://publications.virtualpaper.com/protecteur-du-citoyen/e...

[4] http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs...

[5] http://chalkimmigration.com/2018/04/29/update-peq-group-judi...

[6] https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-boa...

[7] http://oreopoulos.faculty.economics.utoronto.ca/wp-content/u...

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#595

Post by isostatic » Sat, May 05, 2018, 1:13 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #590

weber111 wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1/4 acre is pretty normal for middle-class neighborhoods in much of the US. A land tax would have to be pretty drastic to force people to knock down houses, split/combine plots, and build new houses repositioned to be more dense than they are now. I think a better solution would be relaxing zoning/making new development easier in areas of high scarcity.

A land value tax would make it easier to convince people to do zoning differently. It's also a feature that it would have a larger impact in areas where land value is high and less impact in areas where land value isn't high (so "most of the US" doesn't really matter).

It would also ensure users of land like wide roads (with on street parking), parking lots, etc, pay their way

The money goes to the local administration, who then can spend it on truly public places like parks, offering tax breaks to businesses they want to attract, subsidising housing, etc, which everyone benefits from.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#596

Post by sidrajaram » Sat, May 05, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #440

ng12 wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Especially when you can buy foreign skilled labor (H-1B) with no long-term obligation.

I don’t understand what you mean by this. Every company that hired H1Bs also (usually) sponsors their Permanent Residency as well ( well, at least the ones that don’t abuse the system, like FAANGs). They absolutely want to keep these workers on for a long term basis.

> well, at least the ones that don’t abuse the system, like FAANGs

It's unclear whether you mean that FAANGs do or don't abuse the system. I've heard both sides of that.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#597

Post by jonathanyc » Sat, May 05, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

Sytten wrote: post #588

I'm also from Canada, but I have a very different experience from the other posts. I live in Quebec and speaking french as a primary language. I am still a CS student, but from what I have seen (I am involved a lot with other universities) the retention rate in Quebec is much higher. Only a minority is leaving Quebec for internships or jobs later on. Even if most of us speak perfectly fine english the culture is very…

I can definitely see people wanting to stay in an area and accept lower wages because they identify strongly with the area (in the US and Canada, I’m betting Quebec ranks near the top in terms of this) or because they identify looking for a high salary as taboo.

At the same time, it’s a sure-fire recipe for a brain drain, as undoubtedly some very smart people will emigrate for 2x-3x higher wages (based on your numbers), and just as importantly very few people will want to immigrate and accept lower wages. On the time scale of decades this definitely creates a big issue.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#598

Post by benjiwengy » Sat, May 05, 2018, 1:33 PM UTC

weber111 wrote: post #589

isostatic wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1/4 acre is a large amount for a 3 bedroom house - where I live in the UK a typical plot size in a semi-rural area, from the 70s is about 1/10th acre, for new houses it's about half that. The best solution to high demand is a land value tax. That applies not just to houses, but to offices, shops, parking lots, etc. This means that land owners have to use their land efficently. If parking triples in cost, so be it. If…

1/4 acre is pretty normal for middle-class neighborhoods in much of the US. A land tax would have to be pretty drastic to force people to knock down houses, split/combine plots, and build new houses repositioned to be more dense than they are now. I think a better solution would be relaxing zoning/making new development easier in areas of high scarcity.

The value of land is the opportunity cost of not putting it to its best use withing existing planning regulations/zoning.

Its is also the loss of opportunity suffered by those excluded with left uncompensated leads to a net transfer of incomes, capitalised into rental incomes and selling prices, and a misallocation of resources. Housing issues are purely a symptom of this economic injustice.

A Land Value Tax ends that net transfer, which is why the selling price of land falls to zero.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#599

Post by CNJ7654 » Sat, May 05, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

querulous wrote: post #491

reaperducer wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back when you only needed a drivers license to cross the border, the Canadian border person looked at my Texas driver's license and said, "Texas, huh. Where are your guns?" That would be considered unacceptable and unprofessional at U.S. border control.

a us border guard once asked me if i hated america because i hadn't visited it in nearly 18 months

Well, do you?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#600

Post by sidrajaram » Sat, May 05, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

kingofhdds wrote: post #341

Jare wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, one of my euro immigrant friends in Vancouver was a window cleaner. IIRC she basically showed up at the border with some education certificate (some non-fancy arts degree), her intent to make a living and proof she could sustain herself for a few months; definitely not sponsored by a tech company or anything like that. A few years later she was a citizen. OTOH I know two very capable (although not "rock…

I'm pretty sure there are some important details missed in your story, because you either don't know them, or don't understand why they are important. My European, but non-EU, friend is a software engineer with certified knowledge of both En, and Fr, clean records, and all that stuff, decided to go to Canada for some not particularly economically rational reasons (like love of northern nature). This year it's going t…

Funnily enough, your post is also missing some important details. The Canadian system is very transparent with its scoring. Unless you're from a natively English/French speaking country, you need test scores to validate your proficiency in English/French. Certified doesn't mean much. Also, you need degrees from accredited/verifiable institutions to really rack up points - if your friend is self-taught, it may be no good. Which does speak to the original point of Canadian conservatism.