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Why Men Love War (1984)

esquire.com

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Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#81

Post by ryanx435 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #58
aphextron wrote: post #35

This is the single thing that freaked me out the most about our military and made me realize it wasn't the place for me when I joined at 17. Being a high school kid and meeting people who will look you straight in the eye and laugh as they talk about murdering someone, or watching their comrade's head explode. And not hypothetically, but in real, gruesome detail. I guess there's a need for that kind of person to exis…

That feels like a fairly unique experience. I was in the military and I don't recall ever meeting anyone with that sort of attitude towards killing or death. On the contrary, most everyone I knew was rather opposed to fighting and saw what we were signed up for as a necessity that we did out of duty to our country, not because we liked it.

Are you serious?

The Marines literally make you say "kill" during combat training.

The phrase for firing a machine gun is "die mother fucker die mother fucker die mother fucker release" (release the trigger to prevent over heating of the barrel)

Every time we went on a platoon run the diddies are about murdering our enemies.

I honestly don't believe you were in the military, or you seem to have forgotten what it was really like. Or maybe you were in the air Force, but definitely not the Marine corps.

Source: I got out after 2 deployments in the Marine corps as a Sergeant.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#82

Post by whatshisface »

tatersolid wrote: post #52
ShabbosGoy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since this was written in the 80s and it’s Esquire, it’s highly possible that the author is a military-industrial complex shill. Or an apologist at best. The only people who love war are corrupted individuals. They have no morals.

> The only people who love war are corrupted individuals. They have no morals. Says a person who has never truly faced a grave moral test in his life. I have known many veterans of horrific combat from Okinawa through Afghanistan. They all will tell you they loved it in some bizarre, insane fashion. Yet these same people are the most trustworthy, truly moral people I have ever known. They have touched the abyss, and…

Look, this "abyss" you're talking about can be "reached" by anybody, and I don't have to say how. It's not actually something that we want ourselves or our fellow man to do. It doesn't make you better, if any of it sticks you're worse.

Going on deployment and finding something that improves you is like going to a bar/casino in Las Vegas and finding Mormonism. Sure, it can happen, but it's not what happens.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#83

Post by whatshisface »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #26
ShabbosGoy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since this was written in the 80s and it’s Esquire, it’s highly possible that the author is a military-industrial complex shill. Or an apologist at best. The only people who love war are corrupted individuals. They have no morals.

When I was a young man, the military appealed to me. I liked its presentation of power. Its structure, order, and clear roles seemed to provide a sense of purpose. Maybe war itself would be bad, but the structures and forces that war brings seem like they wouldn't necessarily be bad for everyone. Not everyone thinks or feels like you. That doesn't necessarily make them morally corrupt individuals.

All of the things you listed could also be found on an oil rig: clear roles, a sense of purpose, and the sleep deprivation (not listed but it builds character.) It's quite close to the Keynesian "it's good for the government to spend therefore it's good buy fighters" argument: sure, it creates jobs/funds research, but why not spend the same effort (and far fewer lives) on building the next supercollider or something? War can be a laudable sacrifice if it's necessary but it seems that some are trying to abstract the "good" from the condition.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#84

Post by methodover »

ryanx435 wrote: post #78

Fucking dickwads in this thread who can't understand that violence has solved more problems in human history than any other solution. Its like, "oh, I live in a peaceful society, therefore all other societies in the history of humanity should have known better" when they don't realize that america is very violent, has always been violent, and has more capacity for violence than any other society in the history of the…

> violence has solved more problems in human history than any other solution

That is the most ridiculous fucking thing I've ever read.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#85

Post by ryanx435 »

methodover wrote: post #84
ryanx435 wrote: post #78

Fucking dickwads in this thread who can't understand that violence has solved more problems in human history than any other solution. Its like, "oh, I live in a peaceful society, therefore all other societies in the history of humanity should have known better" when they don't realize that america is very violent, has always been violent, and has more capacity for violence than any other society in the history of the…

> violence has solved more problems in human history than any other solution That is the most ridiculous fucking thing I've ever read.

Yeah, in all of human history violence has been the go to solution:

Problem: I'm hungry

Solution: let's kill this mammoth and eat it (violence)

Problem: there's not enough food

Soloution: the neighboring country has food let's invade and take theirs (violence)

Problem: I want to be king but I'm 2nd in line for succession

Solution: assisinate the king and take his place (violence)

Problem: over population in a region

Solution: invade the neighboring region, kill them, and settle their land (violence)

Problem: can't get laid in the normal way

Solution: rape (violence)

Problem: I'm being raped

Solution: kick him in the nuts and bite his dick off (violence)

Problem: too many of (minority ethnic group) in our country

Solution: genocide (violence)

Problem: want to free the slaves, but the southern states don't want to:

Solution: civil war (violence)

I can go on.

Problem: there is a genocidal tyrant taking over Europe (Hitler)

Solution: world war 2 ( violence)

Problem: there is a man talking about peace and making the peasants uppity:

Solution: crucify him and make an example (violence)

Problem: the Muslims have conquered the holy lands

Solution: the crusades (violence)

Problem: the king is taking too much of our money through taxes

Solution: revolution and #1776, baby (violence)

Seriously if you think violence is not the defacto solution throughout history you are wrong.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#86

Post by ObeyTheGuts »

wallace_f wrote: post #65
reese_john wrote: post #25

Theodore Roosevelt, an admitted war enthusiast, once said: "A just war is in the long run far better for a man's soul than the most prosperous peace."

Do you have any insight or references I could read that would help me understand why someone would feel this way?

cause you not be spoiled brat, you be tight sharp and not fagg. man is as good as his capability to kill, u might not kill but you should always be obsessed about improving ur deadliness. anyone who thinks its wrong way of living is dellusional iniside his lil bubble. peace is a balance of deadly forces

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#87

Post by methodover »

ryanx435 wrote: post #85
methodover wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> violence has solved more problems in human history than any other solution That is the most ridiculous fucking thing I've ever read.

Yeah, in all of human history violence has been the go to solution: Problem: I'm hungry Solution: let's kill this mammoth and eat it (violence) Problem: there's not enough food Soloution: the neighboring country has food let's invade and take theirs (violence) Problem: I want to be king but I'm 2nd in line for succession Solution: assisinate the king and take his place (violence) Problem: over population in a region…

I don't know what you're trying to say. That violence has been used as a solution to problems? Sure. It has. That violence has, rarely, in some cases, been a sufficient answer for a problem? Sure. You cited a few. But that's not what you started out saying. You said that violence has "solved more problems in human history than any other solution" which is ridiculous.

Oh, and I don't think hunting animals for food is the kind of "violence" we're discussing.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#88

Post by placebo »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #73
mcfood wrote: post #71

That was a pretty narrow viewpoint. It seemed to lack any consideration of Vietnam as a country or the Vietnamese people affected by his love of war. Do those fighting for their countries and lives share that love? So I guess my takeaway of his point is: War is some special experience that Western Men have (and not women, Vietnamese, or anyone else), where they get to fulfil some kind of murderous power fantasy over…

War is some special experience that Western Men have ... where they get to fulfil some kind of murderous power fantasy over people who don't matter? No. Nothing about that is western. That’s just history. War is the most human you’ll ever be. I don’t know how to explain it to someone who doesn’t want to believe their own potential for malevolence. It’s like eating from the forbidden tree in the garden. You’re eyes be…

True. Nothing about violence is specifically western.

Also true that the reality is that humans have evolved from more primitive animals that are totally driven by survival instincts and thus will usually act that way too (though mostly disguised in more subtle forms than war).

What you're missing though (or perhaps deliberately ignoring) is the potential of humans to rise above being marionettes of their animal instinct. Acting by instinct has its upsides sometimes. It certainly brings raw animal gratification but rationalising that we're "nothing more than primates that talk" is just an excuse to enjoy the animal gratification while ignoring the consequences (which beyond hurting other sentient beings also blocks one's way to real freedom, which is the real tragedy).

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#89

Post by gmueckl »

ryanx435 wrote: post #81
rootusrootus wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feels like a fairly unique experience. I was in the military and I don't recall ever meeting anyone with that sort of attitude towards killing or death. On the contrary, most everyone I knew was rather opposed to fighting and saw what we were signed up for as a necessity that we did out of duty to our country, not because we liked it.

Are you serious? The Marines literally make you say "kill" during combat training. The phrase for firing a machine gun is "die mother fucker die mother fucker die mother fucker release" (release the trigger to prevent over heating of the barrel) Every time we went on a platoon run the diddies are about murdering our enemies. I honestly don't believe you were in the military, or you seem to have forgotten what it was…

If the German military can serve as any kind of reference, internal culture can vary a lot between branches and unit types. So you should really ask which unit types you all served in.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#90

Post by amelius »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #73
mcfood wrote: post #71

That was a pretty narrow viewpoint. It seemed to lack any consideration of Vietnam as a country or the Vietnamese people affected by his love of war. Do those fighting for their countries and lives share that love? So I guess my takeaway of his point is: War is some special experience that Western Men have (and not women, Vietnamese, or anyone else), where they get to fulfil some kind of murderous power fantasy over…

War is some special experience that Western Men have ... where they get to fulfil some kind of murderous power fantasy over people who don't matter? No. Nothing about that is western. That’s just history. War is the most human you’ll ever be. I don’t know how to explain it to someone who doesn’t want to believe their own potential for malevolence. It’s like eating from the forbidden tree in the garden. You’re eyes be…

> You’re eyes become open to the savage visceral reality that we’re nothing more than primates that talk.

If you look at all the accomplishments of mankind in science and art, how can you say that?

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