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Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

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Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#541
post #243
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Montreal bigger than Vancouver? Also Montreal is cheap to live in.

Other than Montreal's cheap cost of living and good public transportation, everything else is not so great. Talented engineers graduating from McGill and Concordia are leaving the province in droves because of Quebec's weird language laws [1], high taxes and obsolete immigration system. (Eg: KFC was renamed to PFK to comply with the language laws) MIDI, the immigration department of Quebec which has fully autonomy fo…

I'm a second-generation immigrant born and raised in Montreal.

Quebec's language is French and historically speaking it has every reason to attempt to protect it. Should immigration be more accommodating towards people willing to learn French? Probably. In my lifetime though I've mostly encountered anglophones who chose Quebec out of all provinces but then refused to speak the language, so shrug.

And yeah there are stupid politicians who say stupid things, just like in the States where some promise to throw out Mexicans and Muslims.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#542
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Silicon Valley, most likely you are not going to afford a house anyway.. .

Sunnyvale (current ground zero of Apple) median is close to 2M - that is only 5x of $400K which a lot of FANG and other engineers pull yearly (and that is the main reason for current SV home prices as, during such low mortgage rates, the market is naturally self-adjusting to 5-6x of prevalent salaries. In 2008 those houses were $700-800K+ - the 5-6x of those $120K-150K salaries back then).

FANG engineers pull $400k WITH RSUs. Base+Bonus won't be that high.

And ... guess what... Bank uses Base (no bonus, no RSUs) to calculate your mortgage.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#543
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is 400k really for a lot of engineers? How many years of experience?

Seems way too high to me (I even used to work at Netflix as an engineer years ago).

all the Netflix engineer salaries i know about are larger than $400K. And it may give you nightmares when/if you hear what Netflix offers when it gets into an offer bidding war with a compensation-comparable company :)

To GP questions - there is a lot of info available around about FANG compensation. Wrt. other companies - several guys around have recently landed new jobs - between 250K by a junior guy with 12 years experience and 0.5M by the guy with 20+. Only one went to FANG, a junior with about 10years and he got close to 300K.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Canada is socially liberal and financially conservative.

Socially liberal in some ways, but not in everything. 4 states decriminalized and/or legalized marijuana before any Canadian provinces. 2 of them did it years before Canada was even planning to do it. That is very telling of the two cultures.

Marijuana is illegal in every state, because it's illegal under federal law. No province could decriminalize marijuana because no province had criminalized marijuana in the first place. We never had the redundant laws that the US states had.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#545
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunnyvale (current ground zero of Apple) median is close to 2M - that is only 5x of $400K which a lot of FANG and other engineers pull yearly (and that is the main reason for current SV home prices as, during such low mortgage rates, the market is naturally self-adjusting to 5-6x of prevalent salaries. In 2008 those houses were $700-800K+ - the 5-6x of those $120K-150K salaries back then).

FANG engineers pull $400k WITH RSUs. Base+Bonus won't be that high. And ... guess what... Bank uses Base (no bonus, no RSUs) to calculate your mortgage.

>And ... guess what... Bank uses Base (no bonus, no RSUs) to calculate your mortgage.

you have obviously never taken a mortgage in US. What bank typically uses is 2 last W-2s. In case if you don't know what W-2 is - it includes base + bonus + FMV of the vested RSUs as of the vest date.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#546
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than Montreal's cheap cost of living and good public transportation, everything else is not so great. Talented engineers graduating from McGill and Concordia are leaving the province in droves because of Quebec's weird language laws [1], high taxes and obsolete immigration system. (Eg: KFC was renamed to PFK to comply with the language laws) MIDI, the immigration department of Quebec which has fully autonomy fo…

The language laws thing is not a big deal. People just get on with it. Montreal is great. I'm here, and if my kids don't go into IT they will work in another sector and will be able to afford to live. I'd consider SV a death sentence. Who wants to work when you will never achieve financial independence because you'll never own your own land? And if you have a huge mortgage you are your boss's bitch forever.

Yeah I find the language laws thing funny. I've worked with a crapton of people who never had to learn a word of French, and if they ever have to, then so what? French is the language here. That's like complaining about Italian in Italy.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#547
post #526
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't any say of those things! From my perspective, you've put my words through a really intense filter and then gotten angry at your filter. For example, I didn't suggest that the government should do such a thing. It's a hideous idea, besides being an obvious legal and political impossibility. What I said was that if they did, it might affect the software salary market in Canada, in contrast to other things peop…

It may be politically impossible, but it isn't legally impossible. Laws, including constitutions, can be changed. This works for both sides of the border. Killing NAFTA is an easy start. Canada can have a wall to keep people in without even building it: simply lobby US politicians to have one built.

I meant impossible under the Charter of Rights, which could change, but isn't going to. You're right that that's for political and not legal reasons, so "politically and legally impossible" is in a way redundant. In another way it isn't, though, since constitutions do constrain politicians.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#548
post #74

I experienced this myself as a dual citizen that considered working in Canada. I received an offer in the US that was $60k higher than offers I received from Canadian startups. Does anyone know what factors (cultural, political or other) contribute to Canadian companies paying so much less than the American ones? You'd think competitive businesses would notice this affect and adjust?

There's been a few matters that bugged me in Canada. When I finally figured out the root cause, they always were high-level policies. From poor-decision making? Perhaps.

Canada is a cold country. It must incentivize the best more than the states to move to here. Let's assume that's not a factor!

Canada admits anyone as an immigrant. It is not a merit-based system. It is a point-based system.

Lets consider ad-hoc tech jobs first: The Canadian companies have access to a large pool of people with 10 years of experience in SQL from a new immigrant, willing to accept low-pay because he is just starting out. So the entry level jobs don't exist for new grads. The brilliant new grads never make it up the ad hoc ladder. The move away at a young age.

High-tech jobs require a community willing to hold foot in Toronto geographically. The VC's appear to not be interested. Why do they think they can't compete with the States? Because the VC must trust the high-tech community first. Those in spotlight are not the types of people I trust. Not the UofT researchers, at least not all of them. But why would they lie? The universities in Ontario is a place of business first, then whatever research means, then science and facts. We researchers notice it. Those who are capable, and have clear conscious move. They never move up the spotlight ladder here.

Why is it a place of business? Let's assume all north american universities are. To the rest of the world, are led to believe that Canada is effectively United States. So a degree from a Canadian University is worth a lot in the far east, for example. They will also learn English. They pay less, and you know, Canada has successfully marketed itseld as the friendly country as opposed to United states. So they come here to study. For a master's degree from top ten American schools, you have to apply and get in. You can walk into a master's in Canadian school if paying out of pocket. Now their homeland psychology replaces Canada with America on their degree. The universities here are filled with incapable students, and professors who have to deal with them. Still, this doesn't explain why we can't trust the researchers.

The Universities need grad student TAs to be able to keep their international students. The university will not pay the TAs properly, because it is a business. The TAs went on strike three years ago. The university of Toronto blinks its public relation powers to make it look like TAs are being paid 50$/hour, because that's how they worded their contract. All gimmicks, facts are that it is common for international grad students to make the bare minimum. See if you can find the actual number of their website. I'm not willing go browse it. At some point it was less than 14000$/year, from all sources of income combined.

Now here's the stupidity? part. The question mark is not there by accident. The grad students are not allowed legally to work other jobs. If they do, they can be fired. This law is set by the ontario university presidents, sitting in a room deciding it together back in 80s or 90s, and it has been in effect since. Here's the next stupid part. No one can setup an part-time job/internship system that works for graduate students, because it is illegal. They actually allow grad students to work 10hours per week in other jobs. You'd say that's great, but TA counts as a part of it. So let's say the grads go to the media to create a public outcry. The university can respond with facts that they can work 10hours per week. The grads have to explain a whole complicated thing to the media. But why would the public really care? These are international grad students, from third world countries, making a lot of money, living in downtown Toronto. For all the public cares, they think the grad students have it good. The companies interested in these talent pools cannot hire them.

Onto why the researchers can not be trusted: Canadian grad students who have it much better and have access to better funding, view these international grad students as friends. These students didn't come here for money, they came to study, to do research, to hopefully meet other same-minded individuals. But they are being mistreated. What's the cultural problem here? Many major american companies grew out of universities. You need trust and a community to do that. I never saw that here, particularly among internationals. Another major factor is that networking requires money, very little money, exposable, maybe 10$? and of all the random networking incidents, 1 in 60 has a chance of great success? That's 600$. Why would they get on the subway and go to a meeting they don't know who is there, to just pay for a drink? Or worst! Dinner. Money is a major barrier between the poor and the affluent. Our society is designed to be that way. And when international grads have no money to network, they must amp up their work to be heard.

So the quality of their work falls. The student accidentally writes up what he's done, or maybe makes up data because he isn't paying attention, or because he is mistreated and doesn't care, etc etc etc. He just wants to finish the degree requirements. The professor has no way to know. Specially where theory falls short, or even worse, where the professor gradually gets more misled about what is going on in their lab. So now the professor fails to get new funding, because nothing really works in their lab. But they need funding, and the new child is on the way. One last paper for tenure.

So the VC's learn via their own ways to be much more skeptic of what the researchers say. The Ontario system makes its education money. The grad students never get together to create the next Apple, they never remain here and never truely feel at home. They will move somewhere else if they intend to start a company. Those who remain and build a tech company, can identify other good tech people, it is mt expectation that they keep their companies out of spotlight. That is why there is no high-tech well paying jobs in Canada. If there is, it is rare, or it is not advertised. If if is advertised, it is even more rare, imagine how many apply. There is no system that allows for a tech career here. Either you are a bright person who can make your own flow, or you are an outsider. There is zero shortage of talent here, despite the poor pay. The problem is stupidity?.

The point-based immigration, the fact that Canadians are portrayed as friendly Americans, is the problem. I sometimes have this possibly wrong impression that Canadians remained conservative because of the immigration laws. Some immigrants learn that people in toronto are nice, but it is only the surface, even with each other. Perhaps it's just me? I have not experience this level of distance with any other culture I've come in contact with.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#549
The financial success of the titans of the tech industry is driven by monopolies and heavy use of tax havens. The salaries are generous for these reasons. Canada - and indeed any country - could easily do something about this if it had the political will to do so. Strengthening and enforcing anti trust laws would be one example; cracking down on aggressive tax avoidance would be another. Then you'd at least have a level playing field for Canadian companies.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The liberalness of Canada is overhyped. The reality is Canada is deeply conservative. It's possible to have universal health care and be conservative, that's only a oxymoron in the US. To quote this excellent article[1]: "the default setting of the Canadian male: a dull but stern dad, who, under a facade of apparent normalcy and common sense, conceals a reserve of barely contained hostility toward anyone who might ro…

>"The reality is Canada is deeply conservative." Agreed. Ontario is a few weeks away from voting in a conservative government with Doug Ford at the helm.

To be fair, Doug Ford winning would be partially the liberals' fault. Kathleen Wynne is hated, and they for some reason had her lead again. They've got some great plans, but the way elections work makes it really easy for Doug Ford to pander hard to suburbites who only give a shit about lower taxes and real estate.

Frankly, as a Toronto area dev Doug Ford winning the election would definitely cause me to consider looking for work in the US. Toronto's in a pretty crucial moment right now wrt growth and infrastructure, and I don't really see the point staying if the party of stagnation wins - whatever tax cut they may introduce is dwarfed by higher salary + lower CoL in the US anyways.

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