Why Men Love War (1984) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#71

Post by mcfood » Sat, May 05, 2018, 6:09 AM UTC

That was a pretty narrow viewpoint. It seemed to lack any consideration of Vietnam as a country or the Vietnamese people affected by his love of war. Do those fighting for their countries and lives share that love?

So I guess my takeaway of his point is: War is some special experience that Western Men have (and not women, Vietnamese, or anyone else), where they get to fulfil some kind of murderous power fantasy over people who don't matter?

Maybe this is the sort of story he has to tell himself to ignore the woman he betrayed, the desecrated bodies he laughed at, the utter disregard he held for everything outside himself and his band of brothers.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#72

Post by ryanmarsh » Sat, May 05, 2018, 6:16 AM UTC

Nzen wrote: post #57

mariodiana wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The book, "War," from Sebastian Junger is well worth a read. I read it before seeing "Restrepo" (which I also recommend). On Goodreads, I wrote this about Junger's book and his take on men and war after finishing it: "[T]he experience of warfare seems to strike a chord deep within the psyche of the men in combat. The bonding among men, the heroism, the swinging extremes of victory won only by the palpable threat of m…

This reminds me of the comments [0] on skydiving and depression from last month. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16840955 > I heard a interview with a vet and climber once who described the appeal of alpinism as "all of the good parts of combat, without the shooting or any conscious thing trying to cause me harm".

He was doing his best to self medicate. That’s him trying to convince himself the medicine is good.

Nothing comes close to combat. Nothing. There’s such an ocean between the sickening frantic chaotic competition with Death and “oh shit if this rock slips I’m going to end up a paragraph on page two of the morning paper”.

Plenty of us combat vets climb, and for the same reasons. Don’t be confused. Climbing can kill you like cigarettes, combat is like smoking crack while trying to land a jet on a carrier deck at night in a storm.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#73

Post by ryanmarsh » Sat, May 05, 2018, 6:23 AM UTC

mcfood wrote: post #71

That was a pretty narrow viewpoint. It seemed to lack any consideration of Vietnam as a country or the Vietnamese people affected by his love of war. Do those fighting for their countries and lives share that love? So I guess my takeaway of his point is: War is some special experience that Western Men have (and not women, Vietnamese, or anyone else), where they get to fulfil some kind of murderous power fantasy over…

War is some special experience that Western Men have ... where they get to fulfil some kind of murderous power fantasy over people who don't matter?

No. Nothing about that is western. That’s just history.

War is the most human you’ll ever be. I don’t know how to explain it to someone who doesn’t want to believe their own potential for malevolence. It’s like eating from the forbidden tree in the garden. You’re eyes become open to the savage visceral reality that we’re nothing more than primates that talk.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#74

Post by ryanmarsh » Sat, May 05, 2018, 6:26 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #67

rootusrootus wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feels like a fairly unique experience. I was in the military and I don't recall ever meeting anyone with that sort of attitude towards killing or death. On the contrary, most everyone I knew was rather opposed to fighting and saw what we were signed up for as a necessity that we did out of duty to our country, not because we liked it.

On the contrary, most everyone I knew was rather opposed to fighting and saw what we were signed up for as a necessity that we did out of duty to our country, not because we liked it. I met this fellow musician at a jam session in St. Paul. Somehow the conversation got around to the military, and he proudly said he was the 3rd generation of men in his family who had signed up for the Marines. He bragged that it was t…

Bragged about killing. Nope. That’s how you know he didn’t see any shit.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#75

Post by ryanmarsh » Sat, May 05, 2018, 6:27 AM UTC

okyougotmenow wrote: post #64

aphextron wrote: post #35

This is the single thing that freaked me out the most about our military and made me realize it wasn't the place for me when I joined at 17. Being a high school kid and meeting people who will look you straight in the eye and laugh as they talk about murdering someone, or watching their comrade's head explode. And not hypothetically, but in real, gruesome detail. I guess there's a need for that kind of person to exis…

> when I joined at 17 Are you sure they weren't just trying to fuck with the naive newbie?

No. We’d never do that in the military. smirk

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#76

Post by icebraining » Sat, May 05, 2018, 6:46 AM UTC

ShabbosGoy wrote: post #69

tatersolid wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only people who love war are corrupted individuals. They have no morals. Says a person who has never truly faced a grave moral test in his life. I have known many veterans of horrific combat from Okinawa through Afghanistan. They all will tell you they loved it in some bizarre, insane fashion. Yet these same people are the most trustworthy, truly moral people I have ever known. They have touched the abyss, and…

There’s a difference between being willing to die for certain ideals (i.e. like the Gauls during Julius Caesar’s campaigns) and loving wanton bloodshed. That’s the point I was trying to make. If you can’t understand the difference between fighting a defensive war and an aggressive war, you need a reality check. Also, I’m not sure why both my replies were flagged - I believe I was acting extremely civil.

But it's neither the willingness to die or the bloodshed itself. Thích Quảng Đức had the willingness and courage to die for a cause, but you'll have a great difficulty recruiting many to do what he did.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#77

Post by whatshisface » Sat, May 05, 2018, 6:54 AM UTC

1000units wrote: post #21

whatshisface wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this was written back before "people" became standard, in the 1980s I think "men" was still in vogue. It says men every few words, but that probably meant less than it does now. Aside, I think it's insane to argue that men "love war" while at the same time admitting knowledge of Vietnam. Weak men like to feel tough by pretending to like war, as if a politician would exert themselves more or less by calling in…

War is a call to power and a purpose. It's also disgusting, but a man can get used to anything.

>but a man can get used to anything.

If this were true PSTD would not actually happen. Wouldn't the cure just be more exposure, if you could get used to it?

>War is a call to power and a purpose.

We're a long time past when the raiding hordes would actually be profiting from their own raiding. Like it or not we live in a country so rich that we have essentially nothing significant to gain by pillaging: the cost for us to conduct warfare is greater than the entire productivity of the nations we invade, even before the bombs start lowering their GDP. As a result it's starting to get close to a century since the last time the US or an allied country fought a war with a purpose stronger than tenuous political chessplaying. Evidence for this: what fraction of our currently deployed armed forces have a lot to say about the political situation where they are fighting? Apparently the answer is almost none, because they're not there to talk about geopolitics. As a result the sense of purpose is isolated in nicely lit rooms while the direct costs are allocated to people who don't focus on the broader goals.

It seems that Futurism is back in vouge, but we'd better remember that the reason it fell out the first time was the fact that an actual war got started. The only two environments where that view can sustain itself are rooms full of warlords who profit and loose in actual war, and rooms full of intellectuals who profit and loose from nothing and who expect to survive in any case.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#78

Post by ryanx435 » Sat, May 05, 2018, 7:09 AM UTC

Fucking dickwads in this thread who can't understand that violence has solved more problems in human history than any other solution.

Its like, "oh, I live in a peaceful society, therefore all other societies in the history of humanity should have known better" when they don't realize that america is very violent, has always been violent, and has more capacity for violence than any other society in the history of the planet. Don't you realize that your "peace" is literally maintained by the us' overwhelming threat of force?

Goddamn it's threads like this that really makes the ignorance of the hacker news community stand out to me in all aspects outside of tech.

Source: been commenting here since 2008 and also deployed twice and got out as a sergeant in the US Marine Corps and have literally made the decision on who lived/died on the battle space.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#79

Post by emmelaich » Sat, May 05, 2018, 7:28 AM UTC

mariodiana wrote: post #13

ISL wrote: post #2

This is a compelling long read. If the subject is of interest, the movie Restrepo and this talk from Sebastian Junger [1] may be of interest, too. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn0zEBhvwXY

The book, "War," from Sebastian Junger is well worth a read. I read it before seeing "Restrepo" (which I also recommend). On Goodreads, I wrote this about Junger's book and his take on men and war after finishing it: "[T]he experience of warfare seems to strike a chord deep within the psyche of the men in combat. The bonding among men, the heroism, the swinging extremes of victory won only by the palpable threat of m…

Everyone should play a team game at some point. Soccer, basketball or similar. Not so much baseball or cricket but they're fine too.

The experience is a good substitute for war and makes you understand yourself and others.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#80

Post by dba7dba » Sat, May 05, 2018, 7:28 AM UTC

ryanx435 wrote: post #78

Fucking dickwads in this thread who can't understand that violence has solved more problems in human history than any other solution. Its like, "oh, I live in a peaceful society, therefore all other societies in the history of humanity should have known better" when they don't realize that america is very violent, has always been violent, and has more capacity for violence than any other society in the history of the…

I think a lot of young folks (many in HN) know history from what they watch/read/hear in daily news, which is a terrible source. So that may be why.

Major nations of modern era (since end of WW2) have not gone to total wars simply because of the availability of nukes. Not because people suddenly became enlightened and refused to fight a war.