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The rise of the pointless job

theguardian.com

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Re: The rise of the pointless job

#81

Post by almost_usual »

tlb wrote: post #19

The goon category is interesting in a future world where AI has replaced most jobs, because it can employ an unlimited number of people. (Goon jobs exist to counterbalance other goon jobs. Militaries are the canonical example.) Most jobs -- teachers, auto workers, plumbers, farmers -- have a natural ceiling on employment related to demand, but goon jobs don't because when one side hires more goons, the other side has…

I think it's interesting this category is simply defined as "goon". This really has been the definition of our entire existence as a species. We have competitors and if they take our resources we attempt to kill them off.

Even today the military encompasses the largest industry in the world. All of the technology we use has been rooted in the Military. Engineering Departments everywhere are subsidized by the Military more than any other department because they know anything you engineer has the potential as a "goon" application.

I don't think "goon" is going away anytime soon, it's a core part of our evolution as a species.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#82

Post by bluetomcat »

Bullshit jobs is what the antiquated capitalist system gives us in return for the increased efficiency in other human activities. You automate the production of essential goods and services with increasingly less people needed to support it, but you still need to employ everyone, so you invent jobs just for the sake of them.

The system should be designed to reward us with more spare time, not to make us busier with ever more mundane tasks.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#83

Post by foamflower »

lainga wrote: post #15

I have said this before, but I see some parallels between the modern world and Japan during the early Tokugawa era. Japan had pretty much reached a steady state by the time Tokugawa Iyeyasu came to power in 1600; most of the available land had been cultivated or settled, and, especially after the policies of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, society was locked in a rigid structure without much room for advancement or unrest. As a…

When my family lived in Japan years ago, we noticed that when taking the train, approximately three attendants checked our tickets before we boarded a train. At least two of those jobs are "bullshit" in terms of producing wealth, but they are socially beneficial in a culture where the social contract requires near-zero unemployment. (I, apparently like you, can't help but remember this kind of arrangement when listening to "jobs guarantee" rhetoric from various politicians.)

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#85

Post by yosito »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #17
drb91 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve employed some sort of inverse ad hominem here. Credentials don’t mean we should take someone seriously. Their words should stand for themselves.

> Credentials don’t mean we should take someone seriously. This is a level of cognitive dissonance I’m not prepared to commit to arguing against. I’m not capable of issuing the bar to every lawyer I require the services of, nor the board to every presumed doctor, nor a thesis defense to every academic. Credentials aren’t perfect, but they are superior to the time required for everyone to judge everything on their own…

You've just touched on why it's so hard to get a job in tech. As a culture, we've taken an attitude that credentials don't matter, and no matter what our past achievements are, we've got to prove ourselves over and over again. Maybe credentials should matter.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#86

Post by TaylorAlexander »

mfoy_ wrote: post #47
tlb wrote: post #19

The goon category is interesting in a future world where AI has replaced most jobs, because it can employ an unlimited number of people. (Goon jobs exist to counterbalance other goon jobs. Militaries are the canonical example.) Most jobs -- teachers, auto workers, plumbers, farmers -- have a natural ceiling on employment related to demand, but goon jobs don't because when one side hires more goons, the other side has…

I die inside. But any suggestion of "mincome" or the like is met with such a harsh reaction... What, effectively, is the difference between goon-bloom and mincome? Is it just that one is too obviously a subsidy?

I talk to people about changing the world so work is optional, and people are really attached to the idea that everyone should work all the time. Our world is sufficiently productive (a trend I expect to continue rising) that we could offer a modest life to everyone regardless of how much they work. Or more conservatively, we could build a world where everyone has 8 weeks of vacation a year or could take 6 months off every few years.

I believe this is doable from a technical perspective and it’s the problem I’m trying to devote my life to. We ultimately need to build optional societies where people who choose to join can opt out of consumerism, a major driver of our need for endless work.

My vision is for systems of robotics that are totally open source (modifiable and royalty free) that can create the basic goods for survival. Then groups of people fund corporations with bylaws like a constitution that guarantee rights to shareholders. The machines provide for the people and excess goods are sold to a market to support growth of the community.

I think something like that in the future is one very useful aspect of a society where unnecessary work is over and regular people get to enjoy the benefits of modern productivity (instead of a small percentage of the population enjoying that while most people miss out).

But in general when I talk to people I find that the hardest idea for them to grasp is the idea that we could all work less and things wouldn’t collapse. We just need to alter the distribution of wealth so that everyone benefits.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#88

Post by monocasa »

ams6110 wrote: post #75
crdoconnor wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keynes said that the government paying people to dig holes and fill them up was sufficient to escape a liquidity trap. He didn't actually advocate nonproductive work.

There's tons of actual productive work that could be done though. Cleaning trash from streets and parks, filling potholes, fixing sidewalks, pulling weeds, painting over graffiti. These things would would make everyone's days a little nicer.

Or even stuff that has real meaning. Rebuilding our crumbling highway system, laying fiber to the home for a next gen telecoms infrastructure. Just going back to school and getting information job skills. Child care. The list goes on and on without resorting to telephone handset cleaners.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#89

Post by billysielu »

expensivedrone wrote: post #80

I'm a programmer working at a big-tech company. I make ~$350k/year, even though my job could be done equally well by a college intern. I only do ~2 hours of productive work in an average day. My previous jobs were far more interesting and challenging, and I had apparently done extremely well in my interviews. Hence why I got an offer with an extremely good compensation package. However, the team that I go put into, i…

Nice username :)

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#90

Post by [deleted] »

weirdstuff wrote: post #64
mfoy_ wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then just ignore the comment! We don’t need any more HN comment policing. Sounds more like you're claiming authority over what is acceptable on HN...

You make a good and valid point. But I think I'm just refuting his/her authority, not establishing my own. Also, there's so much pushing and shoving lately it's hard not to get caught up in it. Lately HN has a very policed feel to it. I think I'm entitled to be honest about how I feel. (We all should.) In this particular case, I felt the parent to my comment was basically invaliding the honest feedback of its own par…

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