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Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

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Re: Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

#101

Post by BSVino »

master-litty wrote: post #79
godot wrote: post #61

I actually absolutely agree with everything in this article; but I did find it amusing that the article is titled "How To Get Your Coworker To Agree With You", and the answer is actually, "Don't." The three sections can be summarized into: 1) Stop the first reaction of trying to do it, 2) Check yourself also, 3) Let go. Again, I actually agree with the author, just thought this was amusing, and may not be what reader…

Beyond amusing, it's great writing. I see we've already changed the title but I wish we hadn't! I bet it's really persuasive for offenders. 1. Lull the reader into a false sense of security: This article is going to help you with a problem! 2. Really dig into it: Share a highly relevant story and connect with the reader's current frustration. Make it as clear as possible that the reader is understood. 3. Now that you…

Hello, article author here. I admit that the title is a bit clickbaity, but I paid careful attention while writing to make sure that the title is 100% correct. At the end of the process your coworker will agree with you -- only it may be because you changed your mind, rather than your coworker.

You're basically spot on with my strategy in writing the article. I stole it from Extreme Ownership, an excellent book that uses a similar tactic. The authors begin each chapter telling a story wherein they made a serious mistake, but leads the reader through their logic in making the mistake such that the reader is thoroughly convinced that the mistake was the right thing to do. Then they reveal the mistake and boom! The reader learns. I found it to be a very effective way of teaching soft skills so I emulated it here.

I don't want to trick anyone into reading an article that doesn't have any value to them so if folks feel that the title was inaccurate I'm totally OK with the thread title being changed. But I would point out that it means a totally different thing now that no longer reflects what's in my article. :)

Re: Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

#102

Post by BSVino »

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #81

>The only person who you're responsible for is you. Kara may or may not be making a mistake with the icon, but you're not responsible for it. What happens when the issue is security related? Personally I find myself in a situation where I feel like I'm wasting political capital and hurting myself trying to advocate for security. Is the solution to just... not?

Hi, author of the article here.

Security can be a pretty significant cost to the business and if your teammates aren't concerned about it then that's a red flag that maybe you're in the wrong place.

But for the time being, yes, consider not. First, consider whether security on your team is a concern at all, for example you're working on an internal tool and you can trust your teammates not to go looking for buffer overflows.

Otherwise, the question I have is, why is there no process for dealing with security flaws? Whose responsibility is it to set up that process? Send your discovered flaw to that person and suggest that they set up such a process so that you can submit any future flaws, and then your obligation to the customer is done. If you burn your relationship with your teammates, you give up any chance of influencing them to improve their security practices in the future.

Re: Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

#103

Post by BSVino »

ams6110 wrote: post #75

Thought immediately about posting a rant on the obsessive use of "they/their" in a singular context. Pick a pronoun for Kara and use it. Whether he is a she or she is a he, Kara is not a "they" But then I thought, nah. I'll just read something else.

Hello, author of the article here. Kara is a "they". Many people use "they/their" as their singular pronoun. My coworker was one such person. :)

Re: Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

#104

Post by chaosite »

dpark wrote: post #40
chaosite wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Socratic questioning is that it assumes a teacher-student type of relationship, or at least a superior-subordinate one. If that's not the case, and once someone recognizes what it is that you're doing, they may become rightly offended at the arrogance you're displaying by choosing the teacher role for yourself.

“Socratic questioning” implies only a collegial relationship. If you cannot walk over to a colleague and ask them questions about their work without them getting offended, your office politics are extremely unhealthy. Or else you are probably wearing an expression of disapproval when you ask them these questions. If you go in with an honest “I want to learn and understand” stance, normal people will generally be happ…

Of course you can and should always ask your colleagues questions in order to understand their point of view and way of thinking.

But that's not what Socratic questioning is. It is specifically when you ask pointed questions, pretending that you don't know the answer already, in order to make the student work out the line of thinking herself, or perhaps force her to flesh out her thinking more completely.

It's more about making the askee think than transferring information. As such, trying to mask that behind "I'm just asking questions" is rude.

Re: Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

#105

Post by nealdt »

I'd check that cup again, BSVino - if I were you. I'm sure a lot of people on HN can have similar or greater claims of success as you do on your 'about me'. We wouldn't want to 'display arrogance', would we? :-)

Otherwise, nice article. Appreciated.

Re: Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

#106

Post by master-litty »

BSVino wrote: post #101
master-litty wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond amusing, it's great writing. I see we've already changed the title but I wish we hadn't! I bet it's really persuasive for offenders. 1. Lull the reader into a false sense of security: This article is going to help you with a problem! 2. Really dig into it: Share a highly relevant story and connect with the reader's current frustration. Make it as clear as possible that the reader is understood. 3. Now that you…

Hello, article author here. I admit that the title is a bit clickbaity, but I paid careful attention while writing to make sure that the title is 100% correct. At the end of the process your coworker will agree with you -- only it may be because you changed your mind, rather than your coworker. You're basically spot on with my strategy in writing the article. I stole it from Extreme Ownership, an excellent book that…

Thanks for sharing the thought process and for crediting the book, ordering it now :)

Re: Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

#107

Post by dpark »

chaosite wrote: post #104
dpark wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Socratic questioning” implies only a collegial relationship. If you cannot walk over to a colleague and ask them questions about their work without them getting offended, your office politics are extremely unhealthy. Or else you are probably wearing an expression of disapproval when you ask them these questions. If you go in with an honest “I want to learn and understand” stance, normal people will generally be happ…

Of course you can and should always ask your colleagues questions in order to understand their point of view and way of thinking. But that's not what Socratic questioning is. It is specifically when you ask pointed questions, pretending that you don't know the answer already, in order to make the student work out the line of thinking herself, or perhaps force her to flesh out her thinking more completely. It's more a…

You can go into a session like this with your mind made up and still legitimately ask these questions. This questioning should hopefully show the other party why they are wrong or show you why they are correct. Either is a great outcome and the questions are the same either way.

Re: Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

#108

Post by sizzle »

lostcolony wrote: post #98
sizzle wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Test your design vs their design with 5 people [1] and share the results with the team. If the results are in your favor, you've effectively elevated the design decision from this sole person to the greater team at large and are then presenting objective data that anyone in opposition of your design would have to publicly admit to colleagues that their reasoning is arbitrary and not grounded in reality. As a UX champ…

They ignored published best practices (per OP), why do you think they won't also ignore data? "Admit to colleagues" assumes you roped in other managers, do you really think an individual contributor is going to win the political game at that level? Because I've seen what happens at that time; all the other managers nod their heads politely, and then behind closed doors tell the one you were butting head with "You hav…

That's a company that isn't going to survive and I'd probably jump ship if they were leaving the product's success to chance and on the whim product decision making. They are in for a rude awakening when competitors leverage full time UX professionals that so the user research to maintain competitive advantage. I agree you shouldn't be brazenly shaming superiors but take a step back and make the data speak for itself.

Re: Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

#109

Post by dang »

underthelevel wrote: post #27
toopok4k3 wrote: post #19

I'm sorry but no. This is terrible advice. Shit quality will be shit quality. If you really know shit has been done, you need to say so. Not communicating it will just keep the shit flowing. Have some pride in your work!

Agreed. This must be written by someone out on the west coast.

Could you please not post flamebait to Hacker News? We're hoping for better than this here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Don't Get Your Coworker to Agree with You

#110

Post by leibnizwasright »

chaosite wrote: post #104
dpark wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Socratic questioning” implies only a collegial relationship. If you cannot walk over to a colleague and ask them questions about their work without them getting offended, your office politics are extremely unhealthy. Or else you are probably wearing an expression of disapproval when you ask them these questions. If you go in with an honest “I want to learn and understand” stance, normal people will generally be happ…

Of course you can and should always ask your colleagues questions in order to understand their point of view and way of thinking. But that's not what Socratic questioning is. It is specifically when you ask pointed questions, pretending that you don't know the answer already, in order to make the student work out the line of thinking herself, or perhaps force her to flesh out her thinking more completely. It's more a…

I have the understanding from experience that people will always give a reason for doing something that I could not imagine.

So 1st, make questions, understand what is the objective with that code you see on screen. 2nd, make more questions too see if other use cases were considered.

3rd, there are best practices, literature that provide a common way of working, discuss how to apply this.

There are no ways of understanding without making questions.

On this specific case, besides the lack of OO design knowledge, there were also a misunderstand on the page object pattern , how web apps are build and what is the web app and what is part of the browser.

And this is why I also talk with my team on my ideas to develop something before or while developing it. It should not be a surprise, no matter how nice and commented the code is.

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