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How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

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Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#161

Post by DanBC »

toasterlovin wrote: post #139
windexh8er wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your claim is you have better scientific basis than industry experts? I'll gladly challenge you to a 6-12 month comparison of you eating meats and me eating a primary plant based diet and pay for WellnessFX panels. If you lose you repay me. Edit: vegetable --> plant, and if I win (we can agree on some defined objective comparisons and scoring offline) I'll even donate the money you'd have repaid back to the charit…

No, what I’m saying is that correlational studies are fundamentally incapable of proving causation[0]. Furthermore, despite 50 years of nutritional advice in line with the study you linked to, and despite reductions in red meat consumption[1], health outcomes have gotten catastrophically worse, not better. So maybe the conclusions that people are drawing from these studies are wrong. Read Good Calories, Bad Calories…

You can see how frustrating it is that someone is providing actual studies while you're providing links to the NY Times?

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#162

Post by pmoleri »

dlwdlw wrote: post #104

One interesting thing ive noticed about chinese culture are the heuristics around cleanliness. Vegetables are always washed vigorously and cooked. Salads and sandwiches and other raw-like things are rather disliked. Hands are washed after petting dogs/cats. Slippers always worn around the house. Dislike of carpets. Windows opened every morning for fresh air. Other random stuff. The safety heuristics cant be delegated…

Interesting. I often wonder if dressing (mainly vinegar and salt), is one of those preferences that play a role in salad safety.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#163

Post by toasterlovin »

DanBC wrote: post #161
toasterlovin wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what I’m saying is that correlational studies are fundamentally incapable of proving causation[0]. Furthermore, despite 50 years of nutritional advice in line with the study you linked to, and despite reductions in red meat consumption[1], health outcomes have gotten catastrophically worse, not better. So maybe the conclusions that people are drawing from these studies are wrong. Read Good Calories, Bad Calories…

You can see how frustrating it is that someone is providing actual studies while you're providing links to the NY Times?

The article in the NY Times is by a highly respected science journalist. It examines a bunch of epidemiological studies and explains why they are fundamentally limited. It should be required reading for anybody who wants to make decsisions based on epidemiology.

You should read it. Seriously. It’s way more important than anything else on HN right now. I promise.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#164

Post by WillPostForFood »

windexh8er wrote: post #153
WillPostForFood wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article you linked is showing data for red meat + poultry, so it doesn’t support the statement that red meat consumption is on the rise.

If you assume red meat declined and white meat made up the difference, sure - but you'd be wrong. https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/livestock-meat-domest... Scroll down to the Beef pivot table. Increases year over year. Yes, red meat consumption is on the rise, along with others.

Ok, so your first link was bad because it included poultry, your second link is worse because it is total production, not per capita consumption (and some production is exported). You might be right, but still don’t have any data to support your claim.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#165

Post by toasterlovin »

windexh8er wrote: post #153
WillPostForFood wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article you linked is showing data for red meat + poultry, so it doesn’t support the statement that red meat consumption is on the rise.

If you assume red meat declined and white meat made up the difference, sure - but you'd be wrong. https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/livestock-meat-domest... Scroll down to the Beef pivot table. Increases year over year. Yes, red meat consumption is on the rise, along with others.

This link[0] also from the USDA, shows availability of red meat (pork + beef) as decreasing from >120 pounds per person in 1970 to about 100 pounds per person in 2014. The best I could gather from the spreadsheets on the link you provided was that red meat consumption has gone up in the last 4 years (2014-2017, not covered by my link), but the overall trend has been way down over the last 40 years, unless I'm grossly mistaken.

And, given that this same time frame has coincided with the obesity epidemic, it seems hard to make the case that red meat is bad for you. I think the best argument you could make is that red meat is bad for you in a small way, but something else is causing the Really Bad Stuff™. I'm open to changing my mind, but the data has to lead me there.

[0]: https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2017/januaryfebruary/us...

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#166

Post by petre »

vkou wrote: post #59
petre wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also steam them if you don't want the taste to fade away by boiling or frying. But I always appreciate a good curry.

Steaming salad ruins the texture, in my opinion.

Not salad. Broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, peas, zuchini etc. Stuff that you don't normally put in your salad.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#167

Post by brownbat »

toasterlovin wrote: post #102
gregable wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully concede this (and jacobolus's) point. I'm not a health researcher either, so don't take my word for any of this. Building a double-blind clinical trial regarding changing people's diets over their lifetime and observing cardiovascular mortality is very hard. Some clinical studies do exist, but they are usually looking over shorter terms and at heart disease risk factors rather than mortality. These show simil…

> Building a double-blind clinical trial regarding changing people's diets over their lifetime and observing cardiovascular mortality is very hard. But it is the only diet research that can actually generate knowledge. The studies you cite are nice and all, but the first two are for studies that measured outcomes after 6-8 weeks . If you assume an average lifespan of 70 years, the longest study represented ~1/450th o…

Double blind is not quite the only way to acquire knowledge.

Even Karl Popper believed in astronomy.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#168

Post by fma »

dlwdlw wrote: post #104

One interesting thing ive noticed about chinese culture are the heuristics around cleanliness. Vegetables are always washed vigorously and cooked. Salads and sandwiches and other raw-like things are rather disliked. Hands are washed after petting dogs/cats. Slippers always worn around the house. Dislike of carpets. Windows opened every morning for fresh air. Other random stuff. The safety heuristics cant be delegated…

I remember watching TV growing up... Full house or whatever family sitcom. The kids laid the bed with their shoes on, school clothes. My mom comments on how dirty that is.

Additionaly it seems like only textbook are Americans using paper towels to open bathroom doors after washing their hands. My mom instilled that at a young age (I'm 36 now). Now it irritates me to see a Dyson hand dryer, and have to open the bathroom door by pulling it.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#169

Post by sp3000 »

toasterlovin wrote: post #139
windexh8er wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your claim is you have better scientific basis than industry experts? I'll gladly challenge you to a 6-12 month comparison of you eating meats and me eating a primary plant based diet and pay for WellnessFX panels. If you lose you repay me. Edit: vegetable --> plant, and if I win (we can agree on some defined objective comparisons and scoring offline) I'll even donate the money you'd have repaid back to the charit…

No, what I’m saying is that correlational studies are fundamentally incapable of proving causation[0]. Furthermore, despite 50 years of nutritional advice in line with the study you linked to, and despite reductions in red meat consumption[1], health outcomes have gotten catastrophically worse, not better. So maybe the conclusions that people are drawing from these studies are wrong. Read Good Calories, Bad Calories…

Gary Taubes has his own biases and problems: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/gary-taubes-and-the-case-ag...

In fact, the study he proposed to test his hypothesis failed: https://community.fitbit.com/t5/Manage-Weight/NuSI-study-bac...

That's not to say Taubes has not written a lot of good and important things, but it is an example of someone who is in so deep that they are missing the forest for the trees. Carbs are obviously not the devil, it's just that the overabundance of cheap, processed carbs have made the diseases of abundance commonplace.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#170

Post by greglindahl »

Fomite wrote: post #155
greglindahl wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't suggestions, it's how consumers behave when told that leafy greens killed some people.

On the other hand, educating customers that food poisoning isn't just for meat is how you get people to wash their lettuce and stop drinking raw milk.

I'm all for evidence-based recommendations. Does washing lettuce work for this kind of outbreak?
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