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Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

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Re: Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

#321

Post by hardwaresofton »

anarazel wrote: post #285
hardwaresofton wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you restate what was "false"? Are you referring to the article or my comment? I didn't mean to state that being aware of your need to learn and improve isn't normal or healthy -- but you can't learn about everything . You literally don't have the time to learn (and practice, and implement in production) everything as deeply and thoroughly to make you a tried and true expert. You have to cut and run at some poin…

> I don't think widely considered experts experience the impostor syndrome in the same way that I see it explained. Experts on postgres internals don't wonder if they're experts on postgres internals... Um. I'm an expert on PG internals. And I get impostor syndrome on stuff related to PG internals.

But you don't get impostor syndrome on PG internals itself do you?

If you do, could you expand on the parts of PG internals that you know the best (I assume that's what you've written/hacked on the most), and the parts that you feel you don't know enough to be an authorative source on?

A sub-point of my post was that maybe people should avoid statements like "I'm an expert at X" for a sufficiently complicated X. Maybe just say "I have a lot of experience using X's feature Y, and dealing with Z when it occurs".

Re: Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

#322

Post by hardwaresofton »

fenwick67 wrote: post #297
hardwaresofton wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I posited that though -- could you restate what you believed my thesis to be? I might just be a terrible writer and couldn't get my point across. > To some coworkers I'm a programming expert. To a 30-year veteran sysadmin I'm a novice. I agree with this -- but it was less about how others see you and how you see yourself. My point was that rather than claiming to be a programming expert, if you just get…

Where I think we disagree is that I would say impostor syndrome doesn't simply go away when you get better at something. This is because as you get better, you will encounter people better than you (especially if your career is advancing etc). To perfectionists or self-critical people this is hell. You basically say "don't say you're good at something unless you really are", but have no threshold for this. This quote…

I don't think there's an upper bound on knowledge at all to begin with -- the pool of known facts for just about anything non-trivial is huge, and there's the known unknowns, and there's the unknown unknowns. If that's true, then it follows that it might be hard (if possible) to find an upper bound on the knowledge for python. There are so many ways you could use python (and related concepts and technology), a combinatoric explosion of complication and unique experience is guaranteed.

To go with this, an intended (but maybe not properly conveyed) second point of the post was to stop saying "I'm an expert at X" and start saying "I'm familiar with X and have used it to do Y, and deal with Z -- spending a long time debugging problem A when it came up".

The only way you can "know" a piece of code is by reading it, I would consider that table stakes, so for me "knowing" python means reading the interpreter code. But, I think it doesn't stop there because you could consider "expert"-level pythonistas to also include a working model of the system underlying to write super efficient python code.

The point was that rather than claiming you're "good" with python, get more specific about what you know about it, and it should be relatively easy to note what you do and don't know, and cut down on the feeling that there's a world you don't know (which there almost always is).

> Want to solve your impostor syndrome? Repeat after me (preferably in a tech interview): “While I wouldn’t consider myself an expert on A, I have read about A and done X, Y, and Z with it so I’m confident I can solve problems with it and debug it when things go wrong.”

This line makes me cringe (and I wrote it), but the point I was trying to make is that we should stop boiling down language familiarity to terms like "good" and "expert", it's subjective, and depends on the application a lot of the time, just be able to recount the bits of knowledge you've gained with experience that you're sure about.

Re: Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

#323

Post by anarazel »

hardwaresofton wrote: post #321
anarazel wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think widely considered experts experience the impostor syndrome in the same way that I see it explained. Experts on postgres internals don't wonder if they're experts on postgres internals... Um. I'm an expert on PG internals. And I get impostor syndrome on stuff related to PG internals.

But you don't get impostor syndrome on PG internals itself do you? If you do, could you expand on the parts of PG internals that you know the best (I assume that's what you've written/hacked on the most), and the parts that you feel you don't know enough to be an authorative source on? A sub-point of my post was that maybe people should avoid statements like "I'm an expert at X" for a sufficiently complicated X. Mayb…

> But you don't get impostor syndrome on PG internals itself do you?

I do.

> If you do, could you expand on the parts of PG internals that you know the best (I assume that's what you've written/hacked on the most), and the parts that you feel you don't know enough to be an authorative source on?

I've hacked, and in some of the cases authored, on many parts of postgres (I'm a committer in the project), including physical and logical replication, durability, locking, executor, JIT compilation, good chunks of the planner, ... There's a few parts of postgres that I don't know as well (SSI, some of the PLs, gin/gist/spgist), but even there I know a good bit.

But that doesn't really matter. Even on code that I personally wrote and committed I get impostor syndrome like feelings. I've learned mechanisms to cope and continue regardless. But I consciously have to do it.

I don't think you should disregard the fact that other people get impostor syndrome quite so blithely.

Re: Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

#324

Post by Zombieball »

sethammons wrote: post #200
Zombieball wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it’s worth Amazon HR specifically chose the term “superpower”. Not sure it needs to be replaced.

I'd argue that superpower construes an innate ability, potentially something that does not need future nurturing to grow. I think this is bad. A term that suggests you can grow into a niche or area of expertise would be much more encouraging for someone I'd think.

But a lot of super heroes are just regular folks who gain their special abilities (super powers). Granted after being bitten by a radioactive spider (or something of that nature).

Re: Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

#325

Post by flukus »

jkereako wrote: post #204
alexquez wrote: post #158

I've been in software for 14 years without a computer science degree and carry a chip on my shoulder because I missed out on algorithms and compilers in school. I'm mostly self-taught and have had the opportunity to run a SAAS company for six years now (CodePen). I'm winging it like many other people in our industry. I wish I'd had two things to when I started my career. 1. A right of passage that endorsed my skills…

Even folks with degrees in CS are still self-taught, they just got a guided head-start. All intellectual fields require constant study and practice.

I think it's the other way around for most, they gave themselves a head start in their teens and then got some guidance at university.

Re: Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

#326

Post by hardwaresofton »

anarazel wrote: post #323
hardwaresofton wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you don't get impostor syndrome on PG internals itself do you? If you do, could you expand on the parts of PG internals that you know the best (I assume that's what you've written/hacked on the most), and the parts that you feel you don't know enough to be an authorative source on? A sub-point of my post was that maybe people should avoid statements like "I'm an expert at X" for a sufficiently complicated X. Mayb…

> But you don't get impostor syndrome on PG internals itself do you? I do. > If you do, could you expand on the parts of PG internals that you know the best (I assume that's what you've written/hacked on the most), and the parts that you feel you don't know enough to be an authorative source on? I've hacked, and in some of the cases authored, on many parts of postgres (I'm a committer in the project), including physi…

Thanks for the feedback -- assuming you didn't mind, I've updated the post with the conversation here.

Re: Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

#327

Post by slededit »

chairmankaga wrote: post #320
alexquez wrote: post #158

I've been in software for 14 years without a computer science degree and carry a chip on my shoulder because I missed out on algorithms and compilers in school. I'm mostly self-taught and have had the opportunity to run a SAAS company for six years now (CodePen). I'm winging it like many other people in our industry. I wish I'd had two things to when I started my career. 1. A right of passage that endorsed my skills…

How would you find such a mentor? So far every job I've joined since finishing school in 2012 I've been the "smartest person in the room". It's been incredibly frustrating to not have peers to learn from technically. It was so bad that I left my city (Recruiters and the jobs felt very toxic to me) and became an expat, started self learning what I wanted until I could consult enough to sustain myself. Now I joined a l…

Some people would question your experience, and there is a chance that you are failing to appreciate others.

However you may also accidentally be the big fish in a small pond. If that's the case try to get to the bigger pond. If you get to one of the big tech companies and find even there nobody is competent enough to mentor you then your either a genius or oblivious.

Re: Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

#328

Post by karlta05 »

MR4D wrote: post #315
bluejekyll wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers are not just welders, or should not be equated to welders. Welders have a blueprint, generally, to work from. There is someone who’s had to design how to form the thing being welded. Software engineers are constantly asked to design and build the things they work on. It’s not a straightforward process of sticking two things together, based on some predefined blueprint. We make the blueprints while we code…

Good clarification. Programmers are like welders. Architects aren’t. They may be welders or programmers, but they lay out the structure and define how it connects to the world. Programming is different (way different) than architecture. In my mind, and part of the reason for the post is that we are expecting programmers to be architects. We shouldn’t. It’s a different discipline.

I really agree with your point on certifications. We are similar to welders in my mind as well.

In my country, our software industry holds certifications higher that degrees. Certifications require to be updated and redone every so often. Even though a degree will teach you fundamentals, I do believe you will learn those in the job and with the certification but a certification really is that.... its to certify that you are adequate in a certain technology.

All of my job interviews have required me to show them my abilities with whatever tech they require.

Another point I would like to make is that I work with people with degrees and I have certifications. Their degrees are more than 10 - 20 years for some. How much has technology changed in that time? I have to keep redoing my certification every 2 years (microsoft for example). And to me 2 years is a long time in the software industry.

Re: Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

#329

Post by chairmankaga »

slededit wrote: post #327
chairmankaga wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you find such a mentor? So far every job I've joined since finishing school in 2012 I've been the "smartest person in the room". It's been incredibly frustrating to not have peers to learn from technically. It was so bad that I left my city (Recruiters and the jobs felt very toxic to me) and became an expat, started self learning what I wanted until I could consult enough to sustain myself. Now I joined a l…

Some people would question your experience, and there is a chance that you are failing to appreciate others. However you may also accidentally be the big fish in a small pond. If that's the case try to get to the bigger pond. If you get to one of the big tech companies and find even there nobody is competent enough to mentor you then your either a genius or oblivious.

Thanks, you're 100% correct and when I recently explained my history to startups out here they have the exact same reaction.

I've been jumping from small pond to small pond until now.

This large company's project is outsourced to over 30+ people where none of the devs have even touched React and come from an Enterprise Java background. It's 6+ months and late, when really the product would take a team of about 8 to do in 4 months. I come in and suddenly I'm tech lead managing and mentoring others.

I understand even this post feels like I'm unappreciative but it wasn't until two months ago that I had a teammate I could feel happy working with rather than me mentoring them.

I don't consider myself great or a genius, but this pain of knowing you can only teach yourself so much has bothered me since my first job.

Hence, how does one find a mentor?

Re: Is there a fix for impostor syndrome?

#330

Post by slededit »

chairmankaga wrote: post #329
slededit wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people would question your experience, and there is a chance that you are failing to appreciate others. However you may also accidentally be the big fish in a small pond. If that's the case try to get to the bigger pond. If you get to one of the big tech companies and find even there nobody is competent enough to mentor you then your either a genius or oblivious.

Thanks, you're 100% correct and when I recently explained my history to startups out here they have the exact same reaction. I've been jumping from small pond to small pond until now. This large company's project is outsourced to over 30+ people where none of the devs have even touched React and come from an Enterprise Java background. It's 6+ months and late, when really the product would take a team of about 8 to d…

I was serious, if this is actually the case you literally have to go where people of talent congregate. As you increase in skill those places become fewer - you may have to move.
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