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'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

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Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At NYC salaries? In a greenfield scenario, I could easily spend $900,000 a year in just payroll and benefits I kind of don't understand what you're getting at here. They're a nonprofit. The majority of their work is coming from volunteers. They aren't paying New York salaries. This is like going to Linus and saying "You can't possibly expect Linux to be sustainable - do you have any idea how much money Microsoft pa…

> The majority of their work is coming from volunteers. > the difference is that people and companies donate their time/money because they want the project to succeed. And that volunteering time and energy are probably valuable then, especially if they can do the work of a real ISP. I think one real question to ask though is what is actually more efficient—donating volunteer time and energy to a nonprofit, or donatin…

> I think one real question to ask though is what is actually more efficient—donating volunteer time and energy to a nonprofit, or donating money and having that nonprofit hire professionals instead?

That's a good question. Judging from software development (which may or may not map perfectly to hardware infrastructure) both seem to work pretty well. Depending on who you ask you'll get different answers about whether closed (purely paid) or open (either volunteer or mixed) is "winning".

But certainly they seem to both work, on the whole. Neither strategy is so radically inefficient that it's safe to dismiss a company that relies on one over the other.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole 5 nines aspect is interesting. I wonder why there isn't more cheaper more unreliable service available for customers built on cheaper hardware using less reliable infrastructure. Laser Links to cross distances etc. I imagine consumers would be fine with 95% uptime of a gigabit connection compared to 99,99999% uptime of 16mbit.

>I imagine consumers would be fine with 95% uptime of a gigabit connection compared to 99,99999% uptime of 16mbit. I can guarantee that nobody would be okay with 95% uptime. That means that your Internet access is down for over an hour every day. Given that people go berserk when their Internet is down for even a few minutes, 95% uptime will be unacceptable to consumers.

Depends which hour it's down. Plenty of people would be happy to have their internet down from 3-4 am every morning if it meant they paid $10/month instead of $70/month.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. This seems like a cool project. Do you know what the cost per user is currently? What frequency do the point-to-point links run at? Have you considered using some sort of lower frequency packet radio for longer distance links, perhaps to other nearby nodes?

Our recurring costs are only for the lease at supernode1, which is around $1000/month. Divide that by our member node count (158) multiplied by users of each node ~4, 1000/(158*4)gives you under $2/month per user. Members usually pay for their own routers so that isn't included. To set up the supernode was about a $10K one-off charge for install fees, servers and antennas. DE-CIX, our IXP, donated bandwidth to us, an…

> DE-CIX, our IXP, donated bandwidth to us, and we have transit also donated from Packet Host and WebAir.

What is the incentive for them to donate bandwidth/transit to you? Your non-profit status? Do they get something else in return?

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#145
post #12

Who's responsible when someone torrents copyrighted material through that Internet exchange point? "NYC Mesh will comply with all federal laws in the countries it operates, however, as policy, no data is collected and therefore no data exists to provide requestors." This is cute, but if you aren't hunting down people abusing the mesh, the whole connection to the internet will go away for a ToS violation.

The beauty of it is as it becomes popular people will start torrenting WITHIN the mesh network.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#146

'Anti-authority', even with scare quotes around it. God forbids somebody uses the word "anarchist"...

Synonyms are fine. Those with knowledge know what's going on. Those with prejudice can remain in the dark for a time.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#147
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google Fiber to cut jobs and halt expansion of US internet service > Ambitious – and expensive – high-speed internet program will stop plans to expand to new cities as business reportedly under pressure to cut costs https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/26/google-fi... Although it looks like they've started expanding again as per https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-rise-and-fall-and-r... . So perhaps…

There are zero nationwide high speed ISP's. So, it's kind of a question of how do you measure success. Yea, google paused expansion for ~3 months but building a nationwide network is a ~100 billion dollar investment. The only option to get there quickly is a LEO satellite constellation, otherwise it's going to be a really long slog with lot's of local governments getting involved.

I hadn't heard they started expanding again, hence my not changed original stance.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#148
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our recurring costs are only for the lease at supernode1, which is around $1000/month. Divide that by our member node count (158) multiplied by users of each node ~4, 1000/(158*4)gives you under $2/month per user. Members usually pay for their own routers so that isn't included. To set up the supernode was about a $10K one-off charge for install fees, servers and antennas. DE-CIX, our IXP, donated bandwidth to us, an…

> DE-CIX, our IXP, donated bandwidth to us, and we have transit also donated from Packet Host and WebAir. What is the incentive for them to donate bandwidth/transit to you? Your non-profit status? Do they get something else in return?

We get a lot of support from the NYC networking community, and we have a lot of friends at the NYNOG meetups. Everyone is very helpful and they also want the big ISPs to have some competition, so we get donations from quite a few people. Some also join our network and get nodes on their own roofs and help with other installs!

DE-CIX is the biggest IXP and they measure their network in terabits/sec. It is not a big deal for them to donate us a 1 gig connection. (it's a big deal for us!) Eventually we may upgrade it to 10 gig.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#149

Actual ISP network engineer here: I'm sure these people are having fun and all, but it's insignificant in the larger scheme of things. (correction to original post: I did not at first see an ASN for them, or announcements of their own IP space. They have an ASN and announce two /24s, and peer at one physical location in metro NYC). Real five nines network infrastructure takes significant capital investment. This part…

[deleted]

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your original post was interesting because it raised legitimate questions about their operation. They answered those questions. This follow up comes across as though you've drawn a conclusion and are now arguing towards that predetermined conclusion while ignoring the additional information provided. Plus your argument has kind of devolved from talking about specific concerns to throwing criticisms at the wall to see…

I'm sharing some harsh reality with them: The ISP market in NYC is highly competitive. If they want to be serious about it, it's not going to work as a nonprofit. I'm trying to tell them bluntly about what sort of infrastructure their competitors operate so that they can get an idea of the actual capital expenditure requirements involved in architecting/engineering a MAN-scale, five nines ISP composed of point to poi…

Well it seems to be working fine for them right now.

So I guess the points you brought up don't matter.

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